to wonder if narcissism is really that common?

[Kibble29]

It seems like it’s become a generic answer for anyone who’s selfish, thoughtless or inconsiderate.

The estimation is that around 5% of people are narcs, but that the undiagnosed cases may mean it’s higher.

On mumsnet at least, so many people claim to have a partner whose ex wife is a narc, people say their mum is one, their boyfriend is one…

What do you think? A common condition or an overused buzzword?

1 in 20, so if I’ve got 300 friends/family/colleagues I know/interact with 15 of them are narcissists.

Thats a lot. Most of us know at least 300 people. It’s also a spectrum as far as I’m aware - people can have several narc traits but not all of them.

In the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR), [1] NPD is defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by the presence of at least 5 of the following 9 criteria:

• A grandiose sense of self-importance
• A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
• A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions
• A need for excessive admiration
• A sense of entitlement
• Interpersonally exploitive behavior
• A lack of empathy
• Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her
• A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1519417-overview?form=fpf#a1

Mumsnet will always give a distorted picture- how many users are there vs how many post about having a narcissistic partner/parent.

Mumsnet offers a safe anonymity to post about real major life issues, so anyone struggling with a narcissist is more likely to post about it here.

I’ve only known one person I really believed was a true narcissist, and it was only after he’d died, when other stuff (desperately upsetting to his widow, and until then very deviously concealed) came to light, that I twigged.

He’d always needed to be the centre of attention - life and soul of the party type - thought by 99.9% of people to be no end of a good bloke. Very few, inc. me and dh, plus of course his wife, ever saw his other side - very mean with money (except for anything he wanted) terribly selfish, and bitterly resentful of anyone else (esp. his wife) getting the attention he thought was his by right.

Funnily enough, before they were married, a psychiatrist who knew him via work, had warned his fiancée against him, saying he had ‘a very complex’ personality.

@Happyinarcon I don't think they do behave in well defined patterns though. A vulnerable narcissist can be extremely erratic.

Couldn’t agree more with you.

I also think that while a lot of people, understandably, get a bit irritated with the accusations of narcissism on MN, I suspect that forums like MN are hugely helpful to victims of narcissists or narcissistic behaviour because it gathers together people with experience who can validate or explain or advise when someone is going down this rabbit hole.

In real life, when you tell someone that the narcissistic person in your life did x or y, people without experience of these personalities find it very difficult to believe you. It's not that they think you're lying, it's that they think you're missing out on key info or that there must be more going on that you're not talking about. I used to believe strongly in the "where there smoke, there's fire" argument but I'm much more cautious about this now because I've seen the way narcissistics CLAIM there is smoke AND fire, and actually, there often isn't.

This is particularly true when the classic tactic of DARVO comes out and the victim is accused of all sorts of things. It seems so unlikely that someone would just outright lie, so at the very least, bystanders say things like, "Well, it's always complicated" or "it takes two to tango" or "no one knows what really goes on in a relationship".

The sharing of information and experience on MN and other forums is hugely powerful. But ironically, is probably also contributing to these sorts of personalities becoming ever more erratic, ever more outraged becuase they can't get away with it as much.

To add ot that, I posted about the narcissist in my life about 10 years ago. I recently re-read a few of those threads. A few people came out with the "narcissist" comment, a few others came ot with, "everyone's a narcissist according to MN". All I can say is I wish I'd understood more about narcissism then.

My brother and FIL have undiagnosed NPD. How do I know you ask?

Well my FIL has abused my MIL for decades in every way imaginable, control, manipulation is like the oxygen he breathes. Police involved, social services involved. He has stolen everything from my MIL and their family. To him no one around him is a person to him they are all his ways of getting his needs met and he is at a stage in life now where there is literally no one left around him. He is so utterly abusive.

My brother also has NPD and likely ASPD is a sexual predator from early teenage years continued right through to adulthood, harmed animals, harmed people, life was/is a game to him, zero insight, zero empathy, zero fear, zero remorse.

Not a chance of either of them being diagnosed because they are so messed up that to them everyone else is the problem.

On the other hand my parents and one of my other brothers, who would never be diagnosed with NPD in a million years, have very strong narcissistic tendencies. To me narcissistic tendencies is where to you everyone around you is a glass of water to ease your thirst and when you’ve emptied the glass then you just move onto the next glass. It is a coping mechanism where you objectify people and dehumanise them. But day to day you can actually treat people reasonably well and with courtesy albeit that you will control and manipulate them in the process but you can behave in very socially acceptable ways and get along with people. I think this level of narcissistic tendencies is pretty common maybe 10% plus. Narcissistic tendencies and NPD are absolutely not the same things. There is a whole world between having narcissistic tendencies and having a narcissistic personality disorder.

Mumsnet has been very helpful for me. My DHs behaviour towards me has been escalating he's a different person to the person I married and I couldn't understand why. I'll be getting my own counselling soon with a view to leaving but it's very hard to leave a long marriage when behaviour is so covert, you don't understand why etc. Reading threads like this is eye opening for me

This:

Unfortunately, it's become a bit of a meaningless term due to over-use and lack of understanding.

I disagree it's meaningless at all. I think that understanding if someone is displaying narcissistic behaviours (not necessarily that they're actually NPD) can have huge value.

The thing about narcissistic traits that are significant enough that people start identifyning them as such, is that it can be very confusing for other people in that person's life because the "narcissist's" thinking is so disordered and irrational. And yet they are so utterly convinced they are right and so very very believable when they express their thinking. Victims therefore find themselves completely turned around because it's so hard to get your head aroudn the irrationality and they're ALWAYS looking for the grain of truth or trying to get the other person to see their side. Which the narcissistic personality simply cannot do.

Understanding that this person literally does not think like the rest of us can be very helpful. Not least because I think popular media, fiction, social media etc all have all programed us to expect closure and complete understanding in relationships. Which is impossible with anyone with strong narcisisstic traits.

It’s very overused. For some reason people seem to just struggle with the thought that someone is just a bad person - they need a term or a ‘disorder’ to swallow it.

I read a lot of posts here about a partner or friend who has acted selfishly or been careless with OP’s feelings, and there will be a slew of ‘what a narc!!!’ comments. Sometimes (most of the time) people just do horrible things, I think.

I’ve never met anyone I’d consider a narcissist/someone I’d believe to have NPD.

Disagree. it's overused and has become meaningless.

Social media including MN will confidently claim 'he/she's a narcissist' based on a few paragraphs coming from one source.

Someone only has to appear on reality TV for their to be thousands of posts proclaiming them as narcissists based on a few scenes in a contrived highly-edited TV show.

Plus all the completely made-up terms like narcissistic abuse syndrome.

And all the ridiculous claims like 'narcissists don't have feelings' 'narcissists don't grieve' etc.

The 'criteria' often posted online or in Youtube/Tiktok videos are so based on feelings of the proposed 'victim' who identifies as a victim of a narcissist and could apply to virtually everyone.

I don't disagree that labelling people narcissistic with little information or because they're a bit of a wanker is not necessarily helpful. But just because lots of people don't understand narcissistic traits, and are too quick to use the term, doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed and understood. I've been on many threads where people are tossing "narcissist" around and I'll often point out that actually it sounds like just normal selfish, entitled behaviour. But I've also been on many threads where the OP is clearly in a spiral of complete confusion because of patterns of behaviour that are extremely narcissistic and understanding that can be helpful.

And the reality is that even if it's only 0.5/100 people with notable narcisistic traits, that's actually a lot of people. Most of those people will not impact most of us, but each of them will have a number of victims over their lifetime and those victims will benefit from a better understanding.

The number of diagnosed narcissists is likely to be less than the number of actual narcissists. To be diagnosed someone has to be in contact with a professional who can make the diagnosis.
And one thing about them is they either don't believe there's anything wrong with them so won't see a therapist, or know they are different but don't want to be labelled by someone they think is beneath them so won't see a therapist.

I agree that these type fly under the radar for longer. Sometimes it takes a life crisis event before some of their dysfunction becomes more obvious, and then only to close family and friends. It’s sad for everyone involved

But your description could easily be things other than the current favourite of NPD. Sociopath. Psychopath. Abusive arsehole. For example.

Overused buzzword. It's a term thrown around to make 'someone I dislike, and/or who is consistently unpleasant to me' sound as if they have a diagnosed, pathological condition. See also 'toxic relationship', 'empath', and 'introvert' (which in Mn usage usually means 'misanthrope and/or someone with poor social skills').

5%? Where is that from? I thought it was supposed to be suspected 1%.

TBH I think it is a lot more common that you'd like to think, but I'm not sure about 5%.

Do they mean 5% of people have abuser/controlling tendencies? I could believe that, especially if it's more weighted towards men (from what I understand, control is an unhealthy coping mechanism for anxiety - and men tend to externalise ie seek to control/bully/put down others, whereas women tend to internalise, which results in MH conditions like eating disorders, self harm or OCD or health anxiety).

That's not to say men never have the internalised presentations, nor that women never act controlling towards others but it's more common for it to go that way around.

But being a bully/abuser/controlling isn't the same thing as narcissistic personality disorder.

Exactly this. True narcissistic behaviour has exactly that baffling emotional whiplash effect because it does not make sense.

For that to be true it has to be relatively rare - it couldn't be 1 in 20. 1 in 200 makes more sense. If it was 1 in 20, then everyone would know one. But actually relatively few people ever have a close enough encounter with a narcissist to experience this, which is exactly what makes it so isolating and confusing, because any time you try to explain what's bothering you to a neutral third party, they interpret it through normal human behaviour or communication lenses which don't work on narcissistic behaviour.

ASPD is sociopathy/psychopathy and in both instances there is likely both. NPD is typically present with ASPDas a part of the condition. NPD can be diagnosed without ASPD but not typically vice versa. Most extremely abusive arse holes in common parlance are likely NPD. When you are at the coal face of these types of personality you learn about them.

I think it’s a buzzword but narcissism and narcissists both exist. We all have narcissistic traits but a narcissist operates and sees the world through their narcissism. They tend to show resentment a lot, have a fragile ego and often wear a facade. They can also be impossible to have a conversation with.

But actually relatively few people ever have a close enough encounter with a narcissist to experience this, which is exactly what makes it so isolating and confusing, because any time you try to explain what's bothering you to a neutral third party, they interpret it through normal human behaviour or communication lenses which don't work on narcissistic behaviour.

Yup. I try not to talk about ours to my friends any more. They just don't get the cognitive dissonance.

My other narcissist experience was a boss, many years ago. The broader team from that time are still in contact and friends, largely due to our joint experience of working for this man. It was literally like being a team in a warzone.... but in a scifi version. Most people just didn't believe the things that happened in that office and so we bonded because at least we had each other. It was so bewildering.

I've just been listening to dr Ramanis 'it's not you' and it's such a good book for anyone who has experienced narcissistic abuse. Unless you've lived it you won't understand it (unless you read her book!)

She explains really well that diagnostic isn't that important as narcissistic people will rarely want to go to therapy and get help to change - it's part and parcel of the condition that they don't self reflect like that.

If the label helps you understand what you've been through and the reasons for the confusion and loss of self you're experiencing now it's helpful. It's also helpful when people assume you're dealing with a normal person with a hear and say things like 'just talk to them? Just explain how you feel'