Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Being 'held hostage' by "trans" teenage kids

240 replies

TryingToGetOrganised2 · 02/11/2024 00:26

In my day, we were goths and emos.

Nowadays, it's gender expression. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% behind the kids that truly feel they were born in the wrong body, but oh for goodness sake, it's not half the flipping population?!

There are a lot of kids who really have gender dysphoria, who I really feel for and support. However, I'm so fed up of being told I'm a transphobe, because I dare question and gently encourage soemone to unpick where their feelings come from. (Read: my own 17 year old son, who is autistic and doesn't know where he fits in the world)

The main military operation is my 16 year old daughter, who is, on the whole, a wonderful human whom I adore. She's just so far down this road of 'you can be anything you want, sod biology' that anyone who asks a question, is shot down and cut off, for having a (possibly) more rounded, adult perspective. She can't see further than her own underdeveloped frontal lobe, and it's driving me insane.

Of course, I'm presenting, gentle, measured, acceptance mum (which, of course - I truly am, if that's who you truly are!) But I feel like she's pushing my son into a lifestyle because he's questioned who he is. Am I being unreasonable to feel frustrated? Or should I suck it up and encourage my boy to be a girl, even though I don't really think it's what he actually wants?

Please be gentle. I've got 3 kids with autism and adhd, amd, having both myself, it's the blind leading the blind. I'm exhausted and just need a bit of support in either direction.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 02/11/2024 12:25

There are examples of family members being far too invested in the identity of another for their own identity. It's unhealthy in its own right.

Poor boy.

FriendlyChattyBee · 02/11/2024 12:25

It sounds like you r really trying to navigate a complicated situation with alot of empathy and care. It must be challenging to balance supporting your kids exploration while also encouraging them to think things through.

Sometimes teenagers get really attached to certain identities or ideas as part of figuring themselves out.

You're doing great by being open-minded and supportive,even if it's exhausting. Hang in there!

Isthisreallyathing · 02/11/2024 12:28

Stompythedinosaur · 02/11/2024 00:41

Like you say, when we were young we developed a teen subculture which many adults hated.

Today's teens are too.

Such is the way of things.

Yes I think that’s it , trans was preceded by militant veganism my SIL had to deal with both issues and she was very worn down by it all with her teenagers

LadyGrinningSoul8517 · 02/11/2024 12:44

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 02/11/2024 10:12

Here we go again 🙄 More accusations of so called 'transphobia' with little to no explanation. Post the screenshots here.

🥱

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 02/11/2024 12:52

LadyGrinningSoul8517 · 02/11/2024 12:44

🥱

It is yawn inducing yes. Post your transphobic evidence or bore off.

Helleofabore · 02/11/2024 13:03

Ahhh wes. We know that some people have their own personal definition of what is transphobic and it seems to be a very low bar designed to enforce society to comply to unreasonable demands from a group who want their philosophical belief to be treated as material reality.

Those people will always be upset when others reject their personal definition. It is too great an opportunity to intimidate/shame/ bully others.

StealthSpinach · 02/11/2024 13:07

AlisonDonut · 02/11/2024 12:24

Why not? Who would you rather be quoted? Which other research would you like to put forward?

I think PP is obliquely referring to JP being reprimanded and refusing to attend gender ideology “re-education training” iirc…
After all, he is a big, meany, biological realist who is the most transphobic of transphobes.

TheKeatingFive · 02/11/2024 13:20

There's a lot of considered, thoughtful advice on this thread. I wonder will the OP come back?

Sturnidae · 02/11/2024 13:26

Secradonugh · 02/11/2024 09:59

Being a girl doesn't mean dressing pretty, playing with dolls. It's worrying that she feels girls shouldn't be doing certain things.

Yes I know. As a grown "tomboy" who is still very much in that mindset, I find it disturbing that she feels like that despite careful care into what media we bring into our home and without significant peer pressure to conform to stereotypes in a group setting. Any time any stereotypes have been mentioned in front of her or by her I've made it a point to ask if genetalia has anything to so with our interests.

So, it was certainly a shock to have her tell me that she didn't feel like a girl and mention "girly things". I suspect it's come from friends she's made in the moment at parks and the beach, but who knows? She's not stupid, she sees clothes, toys, magazines, etc clearly marketed one way or the other and has apparently noticed that she will go for the darker coloured, gaming influences more often than not and gets mistaken for a boy because of her preferred choice of clothes 😩 she won't wear her hair how she prefers as a result and has gone through stages of wanting to wear dresses purely to stop people calling her a boy, then realised it was her hair that was supposedly causing that mistake.

Helleofabore · 02/11/2024 13:38

Considering M&S put up posters in the bra area calling girls ‘young things’ in an effort to somehow be considered progressive enough and not to use the word ‘girls’ or ‘women’, there really is little to wonder about as to why tween and teenaged girls feel they want to disassociate from their sex as OP’s daughter seems to feel is possible.

Helleofabore · 02/11/2024 13:44

By that I refer to this:

https://x.com/beverleyturner/status/1852387920881013018?s=46

And M&S have apologised and have said they will remove the posters.

x.com

https://x.com/beverleyturner/status/1852387920881013018?s=46

Sortumn · 02/11/2024 14:27

Helleofabore · 02/11/2024 13:44

By that I refer to this:

https://x.com/beverleyturner/status/1852387920881013018?s=46

And M&S have apologised and have said they will remove the posters.

That's absolutely nauseating. It brings to mind how some sleazy music exec might have talked in the 80s. It's completely objectifying.

lifeturnsonadime · 02/11/2024 14:31

Helleofabore · 02/11/2024 13:38

Considering M&S put up posters in the bra area calling girls ‘young things’ in an effort to somehow be considered progressive enough and not to use the word ‘girls’ or ‘women’, there really is little to wonder about as to why tween and teenaged girls feel they want to disassociate from their sex as OP’s daughter seems to feel is possible.

Good Grief !

'Things'

JollyPinkFox · 02/11/2024 14:32

Being called a transphobe/ the word transphobia basically means nothing these days. I’d stop being as gentle with the daughter, your son is autistic and it’s already more likely that autistic kids think they are trans. You need to counteract her attempt to trans him because it doesn’t sound like anyone else will. Ignore what she calls you, she’s 16, you’re the parent

Helleofabore · 02/11/2024 14:36

Sortumn · 02/11/2024 14:27

That's absolutely nauseating. It brings to mind how some sleazy music exec might have talked in the 80s. It's completely objectifying.

All in the name of inclusivity.

All because society has been told that to acknowledge material reality is going to cause significant harm to a group who have been told that society must comply with affirming the belief that humans can change sex and that language has to reflect that falsity. And that it is hateful to use the term girls / women / female to refer to people who have declared they don’t identify as what they materially are.

Because some people have told children this, all female people have to accept dehumanising and objectifying descriptors for themselves and their body.

Tittat50 · 02/11/2024 14:38

Miniopolis · 02/11/2024 04:12

Mostly ours didn’t result in permanently life altering deformation and medicalisation along with a dollop of enabling males into women’s spaces though.

Edited

This is exactly what turned me from live and let live to being more openly opposed to the whole thing.

Whatever we were or stood for back in our day, the implications weren't really going to be catastrophic or far reaching - unlike this, as above poster has highlighted.

Helleofabore · 02/11/2024 14:47

Just a reminder of how using 'pronouns' is not the harmless, respectful action that some people frame them to be. And I know that OP has not suggested this, but this is for anyone who dismisses using preferred pronouns as being harmless.

Firstly, the Cass report says it is not a neutral act.

cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

But then collectively, using pronouns has allowed activists to leverage ‘but society sees us as women therefore it is so cruel to exclude us’ from where they want to access.

This has meant male people (including at schools) accessing female toilets.

However, it is not limited to this access. On media, social media, and MN is a great example, failure to use preferred pronouns leads to deletions. Less so now, since Isla Bryson. But it still happens. There is significant harm if female people cannot use accurate, precise and clear language to discuss their needs and where they see harm being done.

Shaming women for not using pronouns, or misgendering, is an act of silencing. It is an act of removing the very language that we need to discuss our needs.

And I have seen people dismiss this with 'but what about the individual? Surely you would be 'kind / respectful / just a decent human being / insert whatever shaming phrase you have seen being used,' to an individual person.

However, the reality is undeniable. And it is all language demands, not just pronouns. Individual's have leveraged this act of 'kindness / respect / whatever' to harm female people collectively. Sport is just one of area that this has been done.

Cyclist McKinnon/Ivy stood infront of policy makers and argued that it was cruel and inhumane to deny males trans people the right to compete as their chosen gender. Why? Because surely society at large accepted they were ‘female’ as people used their female pronouns and treated them a female. We are still campaigning to reverse the policies where this person consulted. McKinnon/Ivy talked to the IOC about transgender athlete inclusion in around 2018/19 I believe.

Mridul Wadhwa is another. Applied for a female advertised job role and was made CEO of the Edinburgh rape crisis centre. Because everyone treats this male individual as a female.

I think Naomi Cunningham has summed it up rather well in this interview.

Naomi Cunningham is a barrister and so has some first hand experience in how the effects of language changes impacts policy and law.

I have seen laws and policies changed by that argument from male activists consulting on committees etc. Maybe some people choose not to trace the harm directly, but the harm is there on numerous fronts.

Repeating preferred pronouns has now given life to phrases like ‘used her penis to rape’ which is so wrong on many levels.

Here is Victoria Smith's view.
The hidden cost of pronoun politeness | Victoria Smith | The Critic Magazine

Here is Ivy / McKinnon on video making the statement:

or the Daily Show link which requires a VPN to watch outside of USA.

People using pronouns need to understand what is happening because of this usage and consider their contribution. I don’t believe they can ignore the collective harm that results. They can try to ignore it. But it has already happened and to deny the harms that have already resulted is dishonest.

The hidden cost of pronoun politeness | Victoria Smith | The Critic Magazine

Scarlet Blake — the convicted murderer who put a cat in a blender — is a man. As Jean Hatchet wrote in The Critic last week, it was obscene to see news outlets reporting his crimes as though they were…

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-hidden-cost-of-pronoun-politeness/

TheKeatingFive · 02/11/2024 14:57

Sortumn · 02/11/2024 14:27

That's absolutely nauseating. It brings to mind how some sleazy music exec might have talked in the 80s. It's completely objectifying.

I know right?

It's hard to process how a movement that thinks it's so progressive is actually horrifically Regressive. And so sad to see young people fall right into that.

TheKeatingFive · 02/11/2024 15:03

I think it can be hard to know where to draw the line.

For me, I'm absolutely fine with clothes, hair, styling - everyone should present as they like. I'm fine with names too, because people change their names for lots of reasons and names are not rigidly gendered.

Pronouns are crossing the line for me, because that's expecting people to shift their perception of reality to accommodate this ideology. But I know lots of people have a different view on this.

bifurCAT · 02/11/2024 15:04

And the worst part about it (from my POV) is the catch-22 for friends and family.

If they say they're this, you have to support them, if you don't, you're a transphobe. If they then say they want to cut bits off, you have to support them, because questioning them, getting them to undergo therapy, counselling, etc to ENSURE this is really what they want, is seen as not being supportive.

So what happens? - They cut bits off, then five years down the line they are disfigured and sad, and no-one wants them because they look and act as like a shadow of their former (beautiful) selves, and then probably BLAME you for allowing them to do it all.

TheKeatingFive · 02/11/2024 15:08

bifurCAT · 02/11/2024 15:04

And the worst part about it (from my POV) is the catch-22 for friends and family.

If they say they're this, you have to support them, if you don't, you're a transphobe. If they then say they want to cut bits off, you have to support them, because questioning them, getting them to undergo therapy, counselling, etc to ENSURE this is really what they want, is seen as not being supportive.

So what happens? - They cut bits off, then five years down the line they are disfigured and sad, and no-one wants them because they look and act as like a shadow of their former (beautiful) selves, and then probably BLAME you for allowing them to do it all.

This comes down to the great dishonesty that is 'affirmation only'.

Genuinely supporting someone is not about letting them harm themselves or doing things they will later regret.

But I agree it's an absolute minefield

ThatWarmJadeSeal · 02/11/2024 15:30

AlisonDonut · 02/11/2024 12:24

Why not? Who would you rather be quoted? Which other research would you like to put forward?

He's part of the Manosphere like Tate and Shapiro.

AlisonDonut · 02/11/2024 16:15

ThatWarmJadeSeal · 02/11/2024 15:30

He's part of the Manosphere like Tate and Shapiro.

JP is nothing like Andrew Tate. Give over.

Name5 · 02/11/2024 16:39

I always ask people to listen to Chloe Cole. It is sad and shocking. There's a podcast with Dr Soh where she talks about keeping trans people pre pubescint That was a turning point for my daughter. Later she read a paper by a research fellow at her uni. She was horrified.

Please, please, please OP keep on top of this before you are dealing with living away adults.