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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That ship has sailed

453 replies

Grooveisintheheartbaby · 31/10/2024 21:23

My company want us back to the office 5 days a week. As far as I and colleagues are concerned that ship has sailed and we will not be coming back we will leave. AIBU to think that businesses need to accept that things changed in covid forever and they can't reverse it without massive disrest and unhappiness?

OP posts:
XxSideshowAuntSallyx · 01/11/2024 08:48

fashionqueen0123 · 01/11/2024 08:24

I used to get terrible headaches and feel so tired in the winter in offices with artificial lighting all day, and arriving and leaving in the dark. Some days the weather was bad and they’d just shut the blinds and it really isn’t good for your circadian rhythms.
And yes - so many bugs! I remember when we all went down with swine flu years back. I also now can wfh if im not feeling as good as I don’t have to drag myself on a 1.5 hour commute.

I remember there being days I'd come in and the blinds would stay shut all day or the times the horrible florescent lights were put on and stayed on even when they weren't needed. I suffer from migraines and find florescent lights awful especially when they start flickering.

Going home with a thumping headache or a migraine was shit. Then there was the time everyone came down with some horrible flu bug, it worked its way round the office.

Gwenhwyfar · 01/11/2024 08:48

Feelingathomenow · 01/11/2024 08:26

Yep in nearly 25 years of working in professional services I have never known anyone discuss anything work round the coffee machine/kettle/water cooler. It’s usually the place where people go to slag off work colleagues/wind up the office politics/stab others in the back. Minimising these conversations can only be a good thing.

Actually if you're at the bottom of the hierarchy, these informal conversations are often the only way you get important information. I find them really, really important and they're obviously not always negative and nasty.

Feelingathomenow · 01/11/2024 08:50

Gwenhwyfar · 01/11/2024 08:48

Actually if you're at the bottom of the hierarchy, these informal conversations are often the only way you get important information. I find them really, really important and they're obviously not always negative and nasty.

Sounds like there’s a communication problem if information you need to know for your job is not being communicated

Gwenhwyfar · 01/11/2024 08:51

Feelingathomenow · 01/11/2024 08:50

Sounds like there’s a communication problem if information you need to know for your job is not being communicated

Of course there is. There always is when you're at the bottom of the hierarchy.
Some workplaces are worse than others, but there have been some kind of communication problems everywhere I've worked!

You can't just rely on memos, there's always an informal communication train.

AnotherMner · 01/11/2024 08:52

Apate · 01/11/2024 08:29

I also think that there's a wider economic benefit to people being back in offices more. Cafes, sandwich shops, dry cleaners etc were all fine pre-covid and when there are fewer people in offices they get impacted.

This.

There has been a HUGE impact on all businesses with WFH.
All the cafes and sandwich outlets have struggled or closed if they relied on footfall from offices.

When there's been a rail strike, they've lost even more revenue and some have gone to the wall.

Parts of the City are now like ghost towns. Properties in Canary Wharf are worth less as fewer people need to be office-based.

Having said that I know, personally, that many companies are asking for staff to come in more, usually 3 days and sometimes 4.
They are struggling because a lot of very 'entitled' young people seem to think it's their right to WFH.

Outcome- they aren't offered the job because they aren't going to develop the soft skills that are needed at a senior level (like CEO, FEO etc etc) by working at home.

WetBandits · 01/11/2024 08:53

I hate WFH, so wouldn’t bother me in the slightest!

AnotherMner · 01/11/2024 08:55

One point that's missing here is whether you want a job or a career, and want to continue to progress.

No one will rise to a very snr level, like a director or CEO, if they want to work from home all of the time.

If you're working at a lower level and that's your aim, fair enough.

Thursdaygirl · 01/11/2024 08:56

I think its forgotten that most of us do hybrid working and attend the office a few days per week, rather than the extremes of 'never' or '5 days per week' so you still get chance to chat, collaborate, pass on information. You don't need to be present all week to do that.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 01/11/2024 08:57

LordEmsworth · 01/11/2024 08:28

But presumably you don't work for the same company as the OP? And your employer isn't insisting on a return to the office?

Whereas - an employer who is insisting has clearly been through the thought process of "what if" and decided that the advantages of their plan outweigh the risk. So the OP's employer is unlikely to give two shiny shits, even if your employer would. The OP threatening to moan, whinge, be miserable and flounce is unlikely to get them to change their minds...

Well, no. It's a possibility that OPs employer is being sensible and has done all the things you mention correctly, but it's also a possibility that they're not. Presumably everyone knows that examples of both exist? OPs organisation could fall into either category.

So nobody can really give specific advice, but then that's usually the way on threads about remote working. It's also why OP is BU to generalise as she does, because there isn't just one ship. There's loads!

Wolfpa · 01/11/2024 09:00

Grooveisintheheartbaby · 01/11/2024 06:47

I will have to apply officially for flexible working if they make me return. I'll compress my hours so I only have to go in the office 3 days. I may even drop a day altogether. If not I'll leave. My sector means I can get another job fairly easily. See how they like that.

Honestly they will probably love it, you aren’t willing to work the way they want you to and you leaving on your own accord will make it easier and cheaper for them.

jobs can always be filled.

LordEmsworth · 01/11/2024 09:01

Feelingathomenow · 01/11/2024 08:35

No, but a lot of employers seem to think their employees won’t walk. Every company I’ve seen that have tried to up office working have back tracked. There’s often an arrogance shown by employers where they think their business is as important to employees as it is to them. Most employees don’t give a shit who employs them as long as they’re paid and the job offers them what they want, flexible working is very important to a lot of people.

Quite a lot of us on this thread have said that our companies aren't backtracking. The fact that you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not happening!

It's a bit misleading to suggest that anything other than working permanently from home is not "flexible working". If employees can walk into another job, and don't care who employs them - why are they wasting their time whinging on Mumsnet instead of getting their job applications in sharpish?

Mlanket · 01/11/2024 09:01

I also think that there's a wider economic benefit to people being back in offices more. Cafes, sandwich shops, dry cleaners etc were all fine pre-covid and when there are fewer people in offices they get impacted.

But local high streets saw a boost hence why Pret changed their expansion plans.

Grooveisintheheartbaby · 01/11/2024 09:02

Interesting spread of opinions. I should have said it's always been hybrid. 2 days in office and that's what I was hired into. Last time I was in an office 5 days was 2019. I took this job further away than I'd like to commute because I only had to go there twice a week. Now it's going to cause me and others issues.

OP posts:
CautiousLurker1 · 01/11/2024 09:03

DH’s company is hybrid. They considered ft RTO but life had moved on for some staff members after the lock downs (children, dogs, elderly relatives) and the fact that their needs changed meant that in a non-covid world they would likely have left the company to find alternative jobs to accommodate where they are now. However, his industry relies on the technical expertise of his colleagues as well as the relationships they’ve fostered and when they factored in the costs of recruitment and rehiring it was felt to be in the company’s interests to adopt strategies that would more likely retain staff.

What DH has seen is that both office based and WFH strategies encourage productivity in different ways - when he’s ITO, you can model those professional relationships and practices to new/younger staff, build those relationships, mentor them. Yes you can also organically speak to people so there is an immediacy and a pace of in person working that simply cannot be replicated with WFH in a global company and yes in a 8-6 day staff are more productive per minute/hour than they are at home, himself included. This is really crucial if you have complex and time sensitive projects/issues.

However… people who do not commute log on earlier, work later, and are more likely to respond to messages ‘out of hours’. Ie, although they no longer have the 2-3hrs commute each day, they will work on average at least an hour longer, more in my DH’s case. This hour makes up on productivity meaning that the productivity per work day is about the same, just over a longer period and probably qualitatively different. In a global business it often means that connectivity between sites around the world is more fluid/organic as they are not sitting looking at the world clock page on ipads working out when best to contact Singapore/Texas/Australia - they can simply message ‘when can you speak about x? An issue has cropped up’ and 75% of the time someone will have reached out within 30mins, even if it is preceded by a ‘can it wait 20mins, just walking the dogs and reception is poor?’

The culture in his company has, as a result, become more family friendly, as colleagues are (after a brief post-covid period of expecting immediate responses and 24/7 reactivity) surprisingly empathetic and considerate of the myriad of complex multi generational family needs. The few that really were taking the P were quickly reeducated or ‘managed out’. DH says that MH indices seem, on the whole, to have improved as have working relationships. His staff/colleagues are required to do 40-60% in the office (the exact percentage is agreed with each person on an individual basis and that stat may be fluid - ie 80% in office term time; 80% WFH over school holidays to facilitate childcare for instance). The only priviso is that they must include 2 days tues-thurs (I think), to ensure the staff do actually interact and team briefings/trainings can be arranged.

So, I think a nuanced approach to WFT/hybrid/RTO policies is needed. Industry obviously matters, but so does the age and expertise of staff and the cost to the company of recruiting. I think a gung-ho approach to insisting all staff RTO FT by x date is a recipe for disaster, whereas stating that ‘the company would like to move to a more office-based manner of working but will consult with each individual staff member to explore what that would look like and whether some percentage of WFH can be accommodated’ is a more rational one and, long term, could save the company money and improve morale/productivity.

Mlanket · 01/11/2024 09:03

Parts of the City are now like ghost towns. Properties in Canary Wharf are worth less as fewer people need to be office-based.

The city has been shrinking its sq footage of office space for years. There’s also a cost saving for businesses, smaller buildings, less electricity, etc.

KnottedTwine · 01/11/2024 09:03

mitogoshigg · 01/11/2024 00:51

@Bewareofthisonetoo Hear hear!

I'm personally fed up calling a helpline and struggling to hear because of the washing machine/dog barking/todder crying

I quite like playing Xbox games - I am self-employed so work comes in peaks and troughs and if it's a quiet afternoon I often log in for an hour or so. The game is multi-player which means that if you choose to do so, you can have your microphone one and other players who are in the same area as you can hear what you are saying. I personally don't like that, so am always muted.

I was logged in one day and heard someone else speaking and it caught my attention as she had the same regional accent as I do. Rather than mute her I listened in to a 10 minute conversation she was having with a banking customer about her account, transactions, overdraft limits. Couldn't hear the customer's side of the convo but heard everything else.

Clearly so productive that you are able to be logged into Fallout76 during working hours.

I also think lots of people are not seeing it from the perspective of a new starter. In most jobs when you start a new job or with a new company you spend the first however long shadowing, or in training, or just asking thousands of questions, developing a face to face relationship with your colleagues and people in other departments. If you are fully remote than that does not happen. WFH is also very nice if you have a house big enough for a home office or freedom to work in the dining room or garden room - not so much when you're a 20 something in a house share with 4 other people all WFH and spending the day sitting on your bed with the laptop propped on your knees.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 01/11/2024 09:04

Wolfpa · 01/11/2024 09:00

Honestly they will probably love it, you aren’t willing to work the way they want you to and you leaving on your own accord will make it easier and cheaper for them.

jobs can always be filled.

They can't, actually. We have skills shortages and unfilled vacancies in many industries in the UK. Other sectors are oversubscribed. As always with work discussions, best not to generalise.

sharpclawedkitten · 01/11/2024 09:04

DreadPirateRobots · 31/10/2024 21:27

For a lot of companies that's a feature not a bug. They are planning on RTO being a costfree way to reduce headcount.

It's shortsighted at best, IMO, because your best talent have the most options and will go first. But that's how many employers are playing it.

Yes I think it's a way for some businesses to avoid paying redundancies.

mongoliandoll · 01/11/2024 09:05

AnotherMner · 01/11/2024 08:55

One point that's missing here is whether you want a job or a career, and want to continue to progress.

No one will rise to a very snr level, like a director or CEO, if they want to work from home all of the time.

If you're working at a lower level and that's your aim, fair enough.

Apart from a few staff, everyone in my company WFH; the publishing director, editor in chief, junior editors, curators.

We are an international company. I myself got a hefty promotion a couple of months ago.
A well managed company employing skilled and professional staff can be very successful.

Mlanket · 01/11/2024 09:06

We have skills shortages and unfilled vacancies in many industries in the UK. Other sectors are oversubscribed. As always with work discussions, best not to generalise.

Yep and ageing population.

Grumpy12345 · 01/11/2024 09:06

HappiestSleeping · 01/11/2024 04:48

As long as people are sat in front of their laptop and not skiving

I think you've made my point for me here. Since covid, nobody ever answered their phone, you'd have to leave a message, wait for the call back, and ask the excuses.

What they didn't realise was that I could see exactly what activity levels they had on their laptop / computer.

Then that’s a performance issue and management should tackle it through performance management processes. I’ve had people wfh clearly not at their laptop as not answering calls and messages and I’ve addressed it as an underperformance issue, not forced everyone back to the office because of one person’s poor behaviour.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 01/11/2024 09:07

I also think lots of people are not seeing it from the perspective of a new starter. In most jobs when you start a new job or with a new company you spend the first however long shadowing, or in training, or just asking thousands of questions, developing a face to face relationship with your colleagues and people in other departments. If you are fully remote than that does not happen. WFH is also very nice if you have a house big enough for a home office or freedom to work in the dining room or garden room - not so much when you're a 20 something in a house share with 4 other people all WFH and spending the day sitting on your bed with the laptop propped on your knees.

The missing part of this is that some young new starters can only take the job in the first place if it's fully or primarily remote. There are people of all ages who have barriers to in person work, and some of them are young.

mongoliandoll · 01/11/2024 09:11

I also think lots of people are not seeing it from the perspective of a new starter. In most jobs when you start a new job or with a new company you spend the first however long shadowing, or in training, or just asking thousands of questions, developing a face to face relationship with your colleagues and people in other departments. If you are fully remote than that does not happen.

As I just said above, we are fully remote. I myself was trained remotely, and I'm in the process of training a new starter myself. For the first 2 weeks we were pretty much on zoom the whole day, and when not actively there, I was fully available (apart from proper breaks). We have made it work.

There is a downside of not meeting the rest of the team until we all come together for a conference, but because we are all remote it's the same experience for all of us i.e it's not that 90% of people are in an office with a few stray remote people. In that situation, I agree, the remote workers would be disadvantaged (I've been that person and it wasn't great, but I was already fully established when I moved to remote).

Echobelly · 01/11/2024 09:11

Wow, 50/50 on the vote. Honestly, if work can be done from home effectively, which an awful lot of jobs can, let it. By all means have 2 or 3 days in the office, madate them if you want, and ideally assign those to teams so people get to see their teammates, I think that is better than fully remote.

I was job hunting earlier this year and didn't see anything demand ft office work (one or two specified in-office 3 or 4 days a week for an initial period and flexible after) and I would not have applied to anything that wanted more than 3 days in the office. As it is, where I've landed up, it's quite a specialist role and the team is spread across the country so it's rare to be together physically but it's not work that needs doing in an office.