To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

Sorry, no. The economics of how er manage pensions are awful and need to be revised, that's a given. That said, no more population expansion, thank you. Environmentally it's a catastrophe as more and more land vanishes under poorly built, soulless housing. We don't want to live as previous generations lived, crowded in small, cold houses so if the population expands we need to keep on building.
(I'd be much more radical about making sure property was lived in instead of being air B and B or left empty for investment.)
We live on a densely populated species poor island. More people just makes it worse.

I agree with so much of what everybody has said
but
it is inescapable that you will get old and frail, and technology will outstrip your ability to deal with it.
I am in the sandwich generation - looking after my mother and my grandchildren. Luckily, I share the care of my mother with two siblings, and she is very independent, even in her 90s, but the thought of being her age with no one to look after my interests (unless they're paid) makes me shudder.
I know that you can't depend on your children caring for you, but there's a good chance they will, IMO.
Also, children and grandchildren, no matter what the circumstances are in the world, are a hopeful thing, and do keep you younger, mentally. I know that's a cliche, but some cliches are true.
I foresee a lot of lonely, neglected, old people in a few decades.

Without knowing if there's a hefty government subsidy, it's impossible to compare like with like.
'Childcare in the Nordic countries is subsidized and is generally paid as a monthly fee dependent on the household income and the number of children'.
If the link isn't allowed, the article is entitled:
Childcare infrastructure in the Nordic Countries.

Taken from this article:
Childcare Infrastructure in the Nordic Countries

@dontbedaft2000 it's not hard to see if you go onto Reddit and 'love after porn' why so many women are very disillusioned - and all ages

I’m so sorry it wasn’t a choice. There should never be shame.
I know a few childless women, I know them very well. I would never ask them if it was choice or not. It’s none of my business, and so open to feeling judged for their choices.

Oh yes, as someone ttc in the 90s there was definitely stigma around infertility. And massive lack of awareness of it as a medical issue. I remember I was trying to set up a local support group for Infertility UK,the internet was in its infancy then and I asked at my doctor’s surgery if I could put up a poster in the waiting room and was absolutely flatly refused. Items so upsetting.

If the men in charge want us to have more children they are really going to have to step it up in terms of making it worth our while. Maternity benefits, career protection, education programs for boys/young men, tax benefits, funded childcare. They need to stop men beating and murdering us as well. The falling birth rate is a global issue in developed countries and the UK is no where near the worst impacted.

But all that carrot takes far too much effort and requires a huge culture shift for men as a group. We all know what will really happen at crisis point is a whole lot of stick - erosion of women's rights, restricting access to education and contraception/abortion options, essentially rewinding time to 'the good old days'.

I was thinking this yesterday. It's terrifying. We'll be back to back yard abortions.

I understand where you are coming from but reproducing on the off chance that you will have an unpaid carer in old age is a flimsy reason for bringing an actual life into the world. What if the children don't want to or are unable to/live abroad?

There is no guarantee of this. Your DM is incredibly lucky but you can go to any care home and you will see countless elderly people who have children yet no visitors (I speak from experience). The fact you are expected to care for both your DM and grandchildren (whilst presumably their parents are working) shows it is evident that a woman's caring obligations never stop, despite how progressive our society has supposedly become.

I understand where you are coming from but reproducing on the off chance that you will have an unpaid carer in old age is a flimsy reason for bringing an actual life into the world. What if the children don't want to or are unable to/live abroad?
yes, I agree. And I clearly said that care in future life wasn't my reason for having children. But, with no children, you have an absolute guarantee of no care in later life, unless you pay for it.

I think that, if you make the decision not to have children, it's worth while bearing in mind that, given medical science, we are all going to be elderly for a long long time.

Most people end up paying for their care regardless of whether they have children. Don’t they?

yes, true. But you stay independent a lot longer if you have someone taking care of the little things - like bank accounts, or other arrangements.
Look, I'm not saying that I have an answer for everything, but it's a point that's worth bearing in mind IMO.

Should your elder care requirements really be something you think about when deciding whether you have children or not?

How does that conversation work? I wasn't sure I wanted children, but we decided to have you anyway so that you can care for us when we're old?

I reiterate, that's not the reason I had children. Obviously. But, in my 60s, I'm very glad I've got them.
If posters want to go on with the wrong end of the stick, I can't help that.

I saw that you'd already said that wasn't the reason you had children.

The point you made, which I was responding to, was that it was a point worth bearing in mind.

So my question still stands - do you really think that people should seriously consider needing elder care, as a factor for whether they have a child or not?

Sorry, I got that wrong. Yes, I think that if you decided not to have children, you should be aware of what I've said.

OK. So would you find it ethically and morally acceptable if someone told you that the only reason they'd had a baby, was to ensure they'd be cared for in their old age?

No, I am saying that, if you choose not to have children it would be worth bearing in mind what I've said.

And I would think the hypothetical person you are positing would be a bit mad.

There's a big gap between what I'm saying, and what you think I'm saying. So perhaps I am not putting it properly and will back out of the discussion.

This is already a thing in the UK, child benefit although it's not quite as generous as what you speak of. About 25 pound a week for the first child so 100 a month. I believe it's a little less for subsequent children though.

I don't understand the logic of your point though.

I don't have children. If I follow your point, then I should bear in mind that I have nobody to care for me when I am old. But if you're saying people shouldn't take that into account when deciding whether to have children, then why is it relevant to me now?

I think you missed the biggest point, I have 3 children all girls and if I were to be in my 20s now I would not even consider it and thats because of the worry, the worry everytike they go out, they go to school or anywhere if anything is going to happen to them. The country is not what it used to be thousands every year being let in we no nothing about and crimes through the roof and serious crimes at that. That's the reason I would not have children if it were today.

Violent crime rates are the lowest they have been since the 70s, and much lower than they were at their peak (in the 1990s).

You might be more aware of violent crime than you used to me, but there's less of it.

@Iceboy80 I can't say I feel the same as you, far from it. DD, who is 21, will be coming home on the bus after finishing her pub shift at 11.30pm. I'm not worried

Official crime figures might be low but that doesn't mean crime is low. So many crimes go unreported these days as people have simply lost confidence in the police and justice system.