To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

Turning housing into an asset and suppressing wages has truly fucked the economy.

I know that's your world op but i really don't think that's the national picture. At my son's primary school there are mums on benefits who don't work at all and have huge amounts of children ranging from 4 kids to 9 kids! Plenty of people are having babies with money being no barrier. Not saying it's right, it's just the reality and the bigger picture

ahh that a different issue if you are talking about immigration. That is a completely different discussion. We don’t have to rely on immigration- that is a political choice that can be managed. What we need to do is ensure every single person is working age (and of good health) is 100% productive which is currently not the case

as I have said before if the ratio of old to young is the same the absolute number is smaller! So less pressure on finite resources. Resources are not infinite.

@bakewellbride why do you think your example of lots of mothers not working having lots of kids is representative of the National picture?!

@Drfosters I give up! 😆

We based our mortgage deliberately on one income to live in an ex local authority property....life is what you make it🤷‍♀️

Yes I could have worked full time to afford a large new build property but I wanted to be a SAHM to raise a large family.

Everyone wants luxury these days, but you can't have it all. That's life. It's about realigning your priorities.

I agree. I know many anecdotally with more than 4 children per family.

Interesting thread, I haven't got through all of it but I also think that, if you decide not to have children, you will initially miss out on a lot of hard work and expense (as well as lots of lovely stuff, of course).
But what you might not realise, and by then it will be too late, is what a joy adult children are and, as you age, how much better and easier your life is with them.
I would find the thought of facing my 80s without a child to watch out for me and my dh.

...frightening.

I will have four adult children all going well @Sausagenbacon and agree it's nice knowing that they will be around in my dotage to talk to.

“1.18 million families that have three or more children.”

And that figure is lower now vs 1996

I think it’s this. And now women have the choice.

My own personal reasons:

1.Can't afford to buy a house, no council or HA properties available so stuck in a private rent - too unstable & expensive with kids.

1. Can't afford childcare - far too expensive.
2. Literally no help- no family etc to fall back on (which I do feel would have been different previously)
3. I want a better standard of living than I had for my child - I couldn't afford this with more.
4. In general society has shifted from women being stay at home baby makers - obviously a good thing for those who don't want to do it - ties in with standard of living for most people.

I feel incredibly sad about it, I would have loved a big family but it's so unachievable.

What I would say from my observations as part of my job is that our neonatal clinics tend to be predominantly Asian/Muslim babies & I wonder if it's due to being more traditional in the sense that it's still expected of the women to stay home & have babies. In the families I meet a lot of the women don't work & their mothers/mother in laws often accompany them to their appointments so there is that larger support network.
( I am aware this is a general statement and plenty of Muslim women are working professionals, this is just an observation from what I've seen & I feel explains why birth rates are falling - as a society we've moved away from this type of lifestyle in general whereas some cultures this is still very much the norm)

The ratio of old to young is not the same if fewer babies are being born each generation. The population becomes top-heavy. This is an image of the Japanese population. When the large group currently in their late 40s and 50s reach old age and stop working, there are far fewer working-age people to support them.

Too late to care now. A whole generation have been renting bedrooms while being told to cut back on avocado & coffee. Only the rich and the benefits class can afford kids now.

But I bet those ex-local authority houses have increased in price several times more since you bought one than wages have. An ex local authority house in my town costs upwards of £500,000 for a 3-bed! Unless you bought in the last 3 or 4 years, your experiences won't match those of young people today.

Not to mention minimal parental input, no space/resources/quiet time for doing homework/revise for exams. By having 8 children when you are poor, you are barely providing a minimum level of parenting. Those children, unless they are extraordinarily motivated and hardworking have the odds stacked against them. Not to mention whether the mothers are trapped in a cycle of not knowing what else to do but to have babies. there was a poor woman who in the news a couple of weeks ago who jumped to her death from a block of flats. She was pregnant with her 5th/6th child and she was only 33.

This.

I think it's more about lifestyle expectations. Lots of less well-off people have children. People in very poor countries have lots of children. People in generally wealthy countries fo tend to have less children but doen more on the few they have.

Hardly anyone has 8 dc though.

I said upthread that the declining birth rate hs not happening in my area. Many women in their 20s are having children and lots of them. Many men in their 20s are having children and again, lots of them.
Of course these are not necessarily the people who are working full time and with be paying tax until they are 67. No, and therein lies the problem.
The people working well paid, long hours probably cannot afford to have children or don’t want to spend the majority of their child’s waking hours away from them. Lots of these men and women in their 20s have patents who don’t work either. So it’s a win win for them.

Didn’t mean to quote you sausage

Whilst this is true for some people, there are others who have adult children who add nothing to their lives at all except for problems. Some move abroad and only visit once a decade, some expect grandparents to provide unlimited free childcare, some expect their parents to house and fund them indefinitely whilst contributing nothing to the household either financially or in terms of domestic chores. There are thousands of threads on here about it.

Yes, I agree. But it doesn't mean that the reverse doesn't happen.
If you don't have children, you rule out both possibilities.

There's a massive divide in what young people can afford. Your example is one. My ex partner's adult children are very different, both sets of grandparents own large homes and only 2 grandchildren between them. My ex and his ex both own high value properties in their village and both have great pensions and savings. Lotsvof it not earned but either gains in property prices or inheritance.

The 2 adult young people are therefore already able to buy property. Very different future as far as finances go.

A major factor is nursery costs in the UK.. it was so much cheaper when my now 10 year old was a toddler. It's unaffordable. Our intergenerational support has also changed from my mum days. My parents and in laws had retired and invested parents helping emotionally. Now we retire later and then tend to travel if you still have good health. If you leave it until you can afford it your supporting dieing parents with young kids. Your kids watch all of this and see its shit.

Population drop of our species is overall good. But I doubt it will be global or just richer countries so overall it makes not much difference if we stop having kids in the UK if Asia snd Africa for one example continue to have lots of kids per family.