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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that work friends will screw you over if they need to and avoid work friendships from now on?

104 replies

Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 09:11

I worked at a company for 20+ years.

A few years ago, I had a miscarriage and was treated really badly by my manager afterwards. It all got very messy, with the union involved, and ended up in a tribunal where I won the main parts. However, the manager carried on victimising me, but more subtly. It was the friendship of people I'd been friends with for years that kept me there (plus the hope that manager would leave).

A few years later, I had a baby. Treated badly during pregnancy and returned to a demotion and worse conditions. Not allowed breaks for expressing milk. Wanted mediation. It was refused and manager or company said they'd rather go back to court.

Ended up leaving after submitting a grievance which was ignored and not even responded to.

We are now going back to tribunal. Not what I wanted, but my new job pays less than what I would have earned in my non-demoted role, and it is the principle too. I was effectively pushed out of my job and my pregnancy and maternity leave were affected by how I was treated too.

The manager is also spreading false rumours about me leaving (pretending I was sacked rather than resigned, making up false allegations).

Manager is trying to get (ex)friends to be witnesses against me. These are people who know how ill manager has made me and have been vocally and enthusiastically on my side... before I left.

I totally understand that they need their jobs and need to stay on manager's good side, but not to the extent that they are willing to speak against me and for manager. There's nothing that they know or can say that will affect my case badly if they tell the truth, but emails have already been sent via solicitors that show them lying to the manager about whether they have been in contact with me, what I have said to them and what their opinions are on the situation.

The problem for them is that (now they are "in" this by having been willing to write these emails and lie and probably be witnesses) they have now become relevant to the case and my solicitor has made me disclose messages from them and between us that prove they are lying. They will also really anger the manager as they show my ex-friends being very negative about the manager and having lied to manager.

I have no choice about this, but still feel terrible about it as the messages will really turn manager against them. My partner says they deserve it for being such turncoats (he knows them well because a couple of them have really been very close friends and spent a lot of time here and with my children), but I feel bad that the manager may now have them on the list for being next.

Unless they prove their loyalty by being willing to lie in court, I guess.

What I can't get my head round is how people who have been my friends for almost two decades can be such hypocrites. I know they're scared, but how can they justify doing this rather than saying no? Or even leaving if they are that scared for their jobs?

There are a number of people who have left who are enthusiastic witnesses FOR me and they are just as surprised as me about what is happening and probably more disgusted.

They think the lying people deserve to be exposed as liars and that I shouldn't care about having to disclose these private messages. But I do care, because I cared about these people. I know that probably makes me naive and stupid, but the history was positive and I can't just write it off and forget about it.

How can I ever trust anyone again? These were not just short-term work people. We were in each others' lives for years. We socialised together and looked after eqch others' kids. One of them was the person I called when I started miscarrying. Was I stupid to trust them? I think so. So AIBU to never have friendships/ socialise at work again?

OP posts:
MelainesLaugh · 27/10/2024 11:51

I was in a situation once where we had this most awful boss. One of my colleagues was compiling a list of things they’d done to take to the area manager, so used to ring me on her day off or ask me to ring her to tell her what was going on.

Turns out what she was actually doing was getting a list of things I’d said about shit boss and told the shit boss nearly word for word. I ended up with a written warning while colleague got off scotch free.

After that I trust no one in the work place!!!

BurntCoconut · 27/10/2024 11:57

JobHuntingMum · 27/10/2024 11:49

As someone who has been in an extraordinarily similar situation, OP: they weren't your friends. They were people you worked with who have thrown you under the bus. Now is the time to do the same - not that you have any choice, you must comply with your disclosure obligations. It will be shit and awful, but I promise you it will get better. I know it's really hard right now, but just think about how you'll feel when you can tell your child how you stood up for yourself. Sending unmumsnetty hugs Flowers

Just think OP how you would feel if you didn't make these disclosures and then lost your case ? You still wouldn't hear from these people ever again . What have you got to lose ?

Reugny · 27/10/2024 12:18

OP I suspect your colleagues have been threatened with "restructuring".

Also do you have any written evidence that states he sacked you?

If you do you need to give this to your solicitor asap. As you aren't allowed to continue victimising people once they have left your employment.

Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 12:35

cardibach · 27/10/2024 09:58

I disagree. I worked in a toxic place at one time - so bad you wouldn't believe what went on if I told you. The only way any of us fit through it was having close friendships with colleagues. I'm still friends with them nearly 10 years later.

This was basically us.
When new manager arrived, even before all my crap happened, we kept each other going.

That's why I can't get my head round it all.

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 13:02

MillyMichaelson · 27/10/2024 10:01

You know, I have made great friends through work and if you'd asked me a couple of years ago, I'd have said they were my best friends and I'd never lose them.

That's turned out to be untrue; the thing is that nice people expect others to operate as they do, and they don't, so you end up being thrown to the wolves.

For me, from now on, it's 'friendly at work' not 'work friends'.

It's honestly broken my heart so I'm not interested ever again.

I am sorry you had this experience too

OP posts:
SleepPrettyDarling · 27/10/2024 13:11

I think you’re conflating the two issues in a way that doesn’t really help you. The tribunal is to right you’re wrong, and you need to go at it head down to get the best chance of success. People who were personally supportive to you and on ‘your team’ when you needed some allies did that. They didn’t do it to jeopardise their own relationships with management but to help you. I’m sure they never imagined personal messages would be disclosed. So in a way they may feel you are exposing them. Neither is wrong, but you do have to galvanise your case, and that brings collateral damage.

Allthehorsesintheworld · 27/10/2024 13:15

I can’t comment on work colleagues as I’m retired but well done for seeing this through. I hope you win and Karma comes to bite your ex manager on the bum. Hard.

Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 13:38

another1bitestheduck · 27/10/2024 10:55

I don't know, I think it's a lot to extrapolate from this one incident that all work friends will screw you over. I think it's more of a 'people' thing, in that it's natural to prioritise yourself and your family if it comes down to the wire, and it's a rare person who would put themselves at risk to help someone else.

There are loads of examples on here with non-work friends who seem great until the friendship is tested in someway - e.g. a friend's husband flirts with you and she blames you and not him, or your kids fall out or one gets into grammar school/wins a scholarship and one doesn't and that's it for the friendship or someone suffers a bereavement or serious illness and their close friends are nowhere to be found. Let alone all the family drama.

Essentially I don't think 'work' friends are more or less likely to screw you over than friends (or relationships generally) made in any other setting, it's just this particular example that has happened to you.

If you are thinking the ones who are still there were never your real friends then surely you can't trust the people who are giving "enthusiastic" statements for you either, as you've said they've left the organisation so don't have any mixed loyalties. They might be "surprised and disgusted" NOW at the others but you've got no way of knowing if they'd have done the exact same thing if they'd still been working there, or, vice versa, if the friends you think have now betrayed you would have been similarly enthusiastic witnesses if they were no longer working there.

Saying that I don't think you should be feeling any guilt about doing whatever you need to do to support your side.

Edited

This is true

I guess I assume the people being witnesses for me are genuine as they have no reason to be involved unless they believe in what they're saying, but who knows?

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 13:39

Ginkypig · 27/10/2024 10:57

The thing both can be true for some people. Humans have an amazing ability to compartmentalise things to make it as easy as possible to deal with.
even when they know they are behaving against what they should or being hurtful they manage to tell themselves whatever they need in order to follow through on whatever they need to.

i don’t like it and I try my best to not do that and live by my morals even if that has put me in the firing line but I’m not common.

i have met loads of people who on one hand are lovely but put them in a difficult situation and they manage to box different parts up and separate them so they can give themselves an excuse to make decisions or behave in certain ways that they know fine well are not ok. Infact iv seen people behave appallingly then tell themselves whatever they needed to to make it ok to live with.

so if that’s true for your friends at work then they might very well think of you as a friend and still have the ability to screw you over because their work is in one box and the friendship is in another.

that doesn’t change things for you because your are getting the brunt of what is basically adults lying to themselves to minimise their own parts in this.
they most likely did genuinely believe you were friends and that doesn’t take away some of your memories from before this and it is ok to remember those things fondly but that time has passed even if they tell themselves differently. You put the box system in place now. Friendship/after friendship.

you do whatever you need to even with the messages because you didn’t do this they brought themselves into it. You should use all tools at your disposal, you are not going after them or betraying them, you are using legitimate information that they opened up the option (actually forced you) to use and that’s ok.

Edited

This point about compartmentalising is really really helpful.

I agree that this is perhaps what they have done and what I need to try to do.

OP posts:
coxesorangepippin · 27/10/2024 13:43

Yup, never trust work people

I've seen workmates throw other people under the bus like you wouldn't believe

Utter hypocrites

Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 13:50

Worriednanof1 · 27/10/2024 11:02

I totally agree with you, although i'm in a slightly different position as i am the manager. I have recently discovered somebody at work whom i thought was a good friend was actually a 2 faced rat. I'm still struggling to come to terms with that fact & i will definitely be wary in future. Some people think their life will be easier if they are "friends" with the boss.

Ah that's hard.

I do wonder if that was the case for one of my supposed friendships. I was useful to her.

Sorry that happened to you.

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 13:56

Dutchhouse14 · 27/10/2024 11:05

Above sums it all up really.
I'm sorry you are going through this OP but your resilience and perseverance is amazing-good luck at tribunal!
I've made some really good long term friends through work and we've supported each other through a lot. I wouldn't avoid making friends at work because of this, you've just been very unlucky.
I'm now currently in a team where we are definitely colleagues not friends and I miss the friendship.
I also think that your ex colleagued friends are now worried about their own jobs and paying the mortgage etc and have been put in an untenable position where they had to pick a side, sadly because they see their toxic manager every day and ramifications on their job /income /pension they've picked work and financial security over you. I doubt it's personal they are probably scared to speak up and tell the truth.
You do what you need to do by supporting yourself at tribunal including disclosing messages.
Just be glad you aren't in their position working for a boss and company like this.
Why on earth hasn't manager been sacked by the company?!?
I so sincerely hope you win tribunal, do update this thread with the result.

I am not sure how resilient I am anymore.
But I am trying.

Manager is still there because his manager thinks that I deserve what I get because I shouldn't have complained about my manager in the first place. Manager's manager also found guilty of various things at first Tribunal as a result.

Manager's manager cannot be sacked by anyone so they're both bulletproof.

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 13:58

Worriedmummmm · 27/10/2024 11:11

I was once involved in a work tribunal as a witness for a colleague (not a friend, but only because I didn’t really know her). It changed things for me in a way I could not have foreseen, and suddenly senior managers were changing my working conditions and I was being accused of all sorts, paperwork relating to me was being ‘lost’, whole meeting notes ‘lost’ and seniors suddenly forgetting whole conversations. As it was really coming to a head I went on mat leave and changed departments and area. I could not have returned to my old role/area. In the end the colleague settled and part of this was no communication with me. I don’t regret being her witness; I was the only one with evidence to help her and work’s treatment of her was wrong, but it really made my life hell for a few years.

So whilst your friends should not be lying (absolutely not) their words may have been twisted, and you really don’t know how bad things may be for them now. It’s not something I’d be able to get over but maybe don’t let it sour you for life? Toxic environments can really change people. I’m glad you got out! Don’t put it off future friendships; I stay away from work friendships for the reasons other posters have given, but I have a few, of people I would absolutely trust.

Ohhhh this is so bad. Very believable, sadly. Well done for doing but I am sorry the cost to you was so high.

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 13:59

@Worriedmummmm, would you do it again if you could go back?

I am sorry they did that to you.

OP posts:
CagneyNYPD1 · 27/10/2024 14:32

I worked with a woman for many years. Supported her through her divorce and with lots of issues with her dc. She came to my wedding.

Then out of the blue she lodge a grievance against me. Our colleagues got wind of it and many of them supported her.

All of her allegations were untrue and I had proof for meeting notes, diary dates when I wasn't in work (on the days she alleged I was bullying her).

But I had to prove my innocence. It nearly broke me.

I eventually left my job a couple of years after she left. I just couldn't trust anyone and was constantly watching every word that came out of my mouth. I stopped speaking in meetings and only communicated with colleagues in writing so that I have a paper trail.

It pushed me to a nervous breakdown. 10 years on and I am fully recovered and barely ever think about it. But I will never allow myself be vulnerable like that again.

You are not alone OP.

Spirallingdownwards · 27/10/2024 14:42

TheYearOfSmallThings · 27/10/2024 11:35

You just seem very comfortable with your barrister "ripping their lies apart" and them being seen as liars (by who?) for someone who is upset that these same people didn't set their lives on fire to vindicate you.

by those hearing the tribunal.

If the evidence is witness evidence then there are credibility issues. If the witnesses are lying and the messages show this then their credibility is shot and their evidence is treated as unreliable at best and disregarded entirely at worst (or vice versa from OP's point of view).

Good luck with your case @Myotherhouseisatent The word maternity leave returner in any claim should be enough to strike fear into the other side and I am sure that they will offer a door of court settlement!

Hmmmmnotconvinced · 27/10/2024 15:00

I feel for you OP.

I worked as a nanny for years before training to be a teacher and was frankly shocked at the bitchiness (from men and women) discovered in staff rooms when I began.

I’ve always kept my work and personal life separate and never accept friend requests from colleagues until I leave a place. It’s so much simpler keeping work and life separate.

That was until I started a job a few years ago where everyone seems to be hyper- social and it made me seem really up myself for being so boundaried in comparison.

So the moment I’m treading a fine balance between being sociable and attending the odd coffee/ shopping trip with a select 2 colleagues out of a large team and keeping things pretty superficial with the others.

It is a nest of vipers though, and I feel for younger, more naive colleagues who end up with everyone taking against them behind their backs for no reason and thinking they’re in these solid amazing friendships.

There always seems to be one ring leader in the workplace who everyone seems to fear and comply with, regardless of their rank.

I’m neurodivergent and can thank my pattern spotting skills and BS detector for my ability to stay safe from such people but it does sound as though your ex manager has got them firmly in her grip. Flying monkeys.

Well done by the way for getting out. It sounds so toxic and soul destroying.

Your so-called work friends deserve to be thrown under the bus as that’s what they’ve been quite happy to do to you.

Having extricated my self from several toxic workplaces over the years, I would thoroughly recommend leaving the very second that you get that powerless sick feeling before going in in the morning. It saves a lot of heartache in the long run.

Another top tip is to NEVER ever gossip. Only say nice things about people behind their backs.

user1471538283 · 27/10/2024 15:04

It will happen to them. Sit tight and see this through.

This kind of toxic behaviour drips down.

But in future recognise that they are colleagues not friends. I've made some friends at work and some have been friends outside work. But I wouldn't do it again.

Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 16:26

Walkinginthesand · 27/10/2024 11:12

Many years ago I was very friendly outside of work with many of my colleagues at work, we socialised and it was fun. However we were tested when there were changes within the company and some of my colleagues/friends were made redundant. I wasn't. I was of course very sympathetic to their change in fortunes but their expectation was that I should show loyalty to them by resigning and because I had no intention of doing that, I was dropped. It was a lesson learnt though and kept future work colleagues at arm's length.

Oh wow, I can understand why you didn't want to do that

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 16:28

EmmaMaria · 27/10/2024 11:40

But it is the manager / employer that has done that, not the OP!

I totally get why people still in employment won't stand up for ex-colleagues, but if they weren't prepared to tell the truth, they could have gone with "I know nothing, I have nothing to say, it wasn't my business". But having been in a similar situation where colleagues I regarded as friends lied through their teeth about me (and luckily I had proof they were lying) I have never trusted colleagues again. I'll be friendly, but not friends.

@EmmaMaria, sorry that happened to you 😞

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 16:29

JobHuntingMum · 27/10/2024 11:49

As someone who has been in an extraordinarily similar situation, OP: they weren't your friends. They were people you worked with who have thrown you under the bus. Now is the time to do the same - not that you have any choice, you must comply with your disclosure obligations. It will be shit and awful, but I promise you it will get better. I know it's really hard right now, but just think about how you'll feel when you can tell your child how you stood up for yourself. Sending unmumsnetty hugs Flowers

@JobHuntingMum, thank you

I am so sorry you have has a similar experience

I am standing up for myself but wow, hadn't realised the emotional cost this time round

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 16:58

MelainesLaugh · 27/10/2024 11:51

I was in a situation once where we had this most awful boss. One of my colleagues was compiling a list of things they’d done to take to the area manager, so used to ring me on her day off or ask me to ring her to tell her what was going on.

Turns out what she was actually doing was getting a list of things I’d said about shit boss and told the shit boss nearly word for word. I ended up with a written warning while colleague got off scotch free.

After that I trust no one in the work place!!!

@MelainesLaugh , that is so awful 😲

What a thing to do!

OP posts:
Myotherhouseisatent · 27/10/2024 17:01

Reugny · 27/10/2024 12:18

OP I suspect your colleagues have been threatened with "restructuring".

Also do you have any written evidence that states he sacked you?

If you do you need to give this to your solicitor asap. As you aren't allowed to continue victimising people once they have left your employment.

No evidence for what has been said post-departure.

Just what I have been told by various ex-colleagues. Ex-manager is not stupid. Have seen an email screenshotted where manager hints but doesn't say I was sacked but I have enough claims without adding more.

It's already going to last weeks 😢

OP posts:
HarkALark · 27/10/2024 17:14

I completely agree. I've always prided myself on getting on well with my colleagues across several sectors, all stripes of people. In my last role there was a horribly toxic boss who enabled other members of staff to bully and lie, and I ended up being essentially pushed out of my role.

The friends I'd made, who also hated the toxic manager & complained about them incessantly, have cosied up to them since I left and whilst they still moan about the bullying and toxicity, they stand by and let it happen because, I assume, they're disinclined to disrupt the status quo.

The hypocrisy of it was too much for me. I cut all ties with them and will never enter a workplace again with the same mindset.

Cuppasy · 27/10/2024 17:37

OP, the have chosen to lie and that is on them.
Of course you are very disappointed in them.
How could you not be.

But you have every right to defend yourself against their lies.
It really is that simple.

Keeping your private life largely private is often good advice.
Best of luck.