To think that work friends will screw you over if they need to and avoid work friendships from now on?

[Myotherhouseisatent]

I worked at a company for 20+ years.

A few years ago, I had a miscarriage and was treated really badly by my manager afterwards. It all got very messy, with the union involved, and ended up in a tribunal where I won the main parts. However, the manager carried on victimising me, but more subtly. It was the friendship of people I'd been friends with for years that kept me there (plus the hope that manager would leave).

A few years later, I had a baby. Treated badly during pregnancy and returned to a demotion and worse conditions. Not allowed breaks for expressing milk. Wanted mediation. It was refused and manager or company said they'd rather go back to court.

Ended up leaving after submitting a grievance which was ignored and not even responded to.

We are now going back to tribunal. Not what I wanted, but my new job pays less than what I would have earned in my non-demoted role, and it is the principle too. I was effectively pushed out of my job and my pregnancy and maternity leave were affected by how I was treated too.

The manager is also spreading false rumours about me leaving (pretending I was sacked rather than resigned, making up false allegations).

Manager is trying to get (ex)friends to be witnesses against me. These are people who know how ill manager has made me and have been vocally and enthusiastically on my side... before I left.

I totally understand that they need their jobs and need to stay on manager's good side, but not to the extent that they are willing to speak against me and for manager. There's nothing that they know or can say that will affect my case badly if they tell the truth, but emails have already been sent via solicitors that show them lying to the manager about whether they have been in contact with me, what I have said to them and what their opinions are on the situation.

The problem for them is that (now they are "in" this by having been willing to write these emails and lie and probably be witnesses) they have now become relevant to the case and my solicitor has made me disclose messages from them and between us that prove they are lying. They will also really anger the manager as they show my ex-friends being very negative about the manager and having lied to manager.

I have no choice about this, but still feel terrible about it as the messages will really turn manager against them. My partner says they deserve it for being such turncoats (he knows them well because a couple of them have really been very close friends and spent a lot of time here and with my children), but I feel bad that the manager may now have them on the list for being next.

Unless they prove their loyalty by being willing to lie in court, I guess.

What I can't get my head round is how people who have been my friends for almost two decades can be such hypocrites. I know they're scared, but how can they justify doing this rather than saying no? Or even leaving if they are that scared for their jobs?

There are a number of people who have left who are enthusiastic witnesses FOR me and they are just as surprised as me about what is happening and probably more disgusted.

They think the lying people deserve to be exposed as liars and that I shouldn't care about having to disclose these private messages. But I do care, because I cared about these people. I know that probably makes me naive and stupid, but the history was positive and I can't just write it off and forget about it.

How can I ever trust anyone again? These were not just short-term work people. We were in each others' lives for years. We socialised together and looked after eqch others' kids. One of them was the person I called when I started miscarrying. Was I stupid to trust them? I think so. So AIBU to never have friendships/ socialise at work again?

I totally agree with you, although i'm in a slightly different position as i am the manager. I have recently discovered somebody at work whom i thought was a good friend was actually a 2 faced rat. I'm still struggling to come to terms with that fact & i will definitely be wary in future. Some people think their life will be easier if they are "friends" with the boss.

Above sums it all up really.
I'm sorry you are going through this OP but your resilience and perseverance is amazing-good luck at tribunal!
I've made some really good long term friends through work and we've supported each other through a lot. I wouldn't avoid making friends at work because of this, you've just been very unlucky.
I'm now currently in a team where we are definitely colleagues not friends and I miss the friendship.
I also think that your ex colleagued friends are now worried about their own jobs and paying the mortgage etc and have been put in an untenable position where they had to pick a side, sadly because they see their toxic manager every day and ramifications on their job /income /pension they've picked work and financial security over you. I doubt it's personal they are probably scared to speak up and tell the truth.
You do what you need to do by supporting yourself at tribunal including disclosing messages.
Just be glad you aren't in their position working for a boss and company like this.
Why on earth hasn't manager been sacked by the company?!?
I so sincerely hope you win tribunal, do update this thread with the result.

I have learned this the hard way.

In most work places there is no loyalty or real friendship, just people who will smile to your face but won't hesitate to stab you in the back if it benefits them.

I don't socialise with colleagues, avoid work 'parties' and only exchange vague chit chat about the weather or similar, nothing more personal than that. And I certainly don't trust any of them.

It is sad to have to be like that but it is what it is.

I was once involved in a work tribunal as a witness for a colleague (not a friend, but only because I didn’t really know her). It changed things for me in a way I could not have foreseen, and suddenly senior managers were changing my working conditions and I was being accused of all sorts, paperwork relating to me was being ‘lost’, whole meeting notes ‘lost’ and seniors suddenly forgetting whole conversations. As it was really coming to a head I went on mat leave and changed departments and area. I could not have returned to my old role/area. In the end the colleague settled and part of this was no communication with me. I don’t regret being her witness; I was the only one with evidence to help her and work’s treatment of her was wrong, but it really made my life hell for a few years.

So whilst your friends should not be lying (absolutely not) their words may have been twisted, and you really don’t know how bad things may be for them now. It’s not something I’d be able to get over but maybe don’t let it sour you for life? Toxic environments can really change people. I’m glad you got out! Don’t put it off future friendships; I stay away from work friendships for the reasons other posters have given, but I have a few, of people I would absolutely trust.

I don't think they screwed you over - they may have had a different perspective on events than you, and I would not expect colleagues to die on the hill of my choosing. I think it is too much to ask.

Many years ago I was very friendly outside of work with many of my colleagues at work, we socialised and it was fun. However we were tested when there were changes within the company and some of my colleagues/friends were made redundant. I wasn't. I was of course very sympathetic to their change in fortunes but their expectation was that I should show loyalty to them by resigning and because I had no intention of doing that, I was dropped. It was a lesson learnt though and kept future work colleagues at arm's length.

They threw you under a bus , now you throw them under too . Disclose those messages. No matter what the outcome of this tribunal you won't hear from them again . Of course they are not going to risk their jobs and pensions for you . Harsh but true .

Just to clarify: when I say they have lied, it's not about a difference of opinion. It's about them saying things like they didn't know I was going to do something that they were fully aware I was going to do and needed their help with. It's them saying they've had no contact with me during a period where we have met up lots of times. It's them emailing and telling manager they support them on something they were criticising vehemently to me and others. It's them saying I have said something I have never said that is really crucial.

So less opinions than outright lies.

I would never have asked them to be involved because of their jobs. They would have been good witnesses for me. They still will be, as my barrister will rip the lies apart without even having to try very hard, but they'll be in full view as liars. It's shit.

I would never have done this to anyone. Lie, knowing you may have to carry on that lie in court? Couldn't even do it to someone I disliked.

Eh, do you not think you are dragging them into a lot of shit that is nothing to do with them and planning to ruin their livelihoods? Are you completely sure you are the victim here?

Which bit do you think I have any choice over?

Solicitor says I have to disclose anything relevant. The messages were not relevant as the people were not involved. They are now involved because at least one has agreed to be a witness and the other side has disclosed emails where they tell the manager lies about me.

So I now have to disclose the messages as they are now relevant.

Hope that makes sense.

Not saying I am a victim, but I am definitely not the one who has dragged them into it. The manager did that and some have been dragged more willingly than others and lied to try to save their skins.

I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Regardless of whether they were or were not true friends, you’re expecting too much of people to risk their livelihoods on your account. Look at how long you stayed (20 years!) in a company that repeatedly mistreated you. These people have presumably in some cases been there even longer. It took you a long time to decide to act, and you put up with a lot .— they made a different decision, to continue to put up with an unpleasant working environment or nasty boss for their own reasons.

It’s not that the other former colleagues who have left are ‘better friends’ because they are enthusiastic witnesses for your side, it’s because they have nothing to lose.

And you’re also choosing to disclose private communications that assist your case. I’m not saying you shouldn’t do this, obviously, but you’re making a similar decision to your friends/ex-colleagues — to put self-interest before friendship.

I take your point on almost all of this.

Except the disclosure of messages

Literally have no choice about that. And solicitor pointed out that if I don't, and then the other people do disclose some of the messages themselves, then I will look really bad, like I have disobeyed the judge's orders.

You just seem very comfortable with your barrister "ripping their lies apart" and them being seen as liars (by who?) for someone who is upset that these same people didn't set their lives on fire to vindicate you.

You absolutely can’t know that. You only have the overview you do (ie ‘don’t lie to keep your job, because your private communications will be displayed in court and you will be ripped apart in the witness box by the defence barrister’) because you have sight, via your legal team, of all the documentation, including work emails and your own private messages from colleagues, and you have been told how they will be treated in court.

You can’t know how you would have responded if you were faced with the choice of telling a nasty but apparently powerful authority figure what you thought was a harmless white lie about an ex-colleague, or potentially causing massive workplace conflict for you.

I think you’re trying to make your ex-colleagues sound villainous to make yourself feel less bad about disclosing their private communications in court.

I guess you missed the "it's shit" bit in that post and the entire section in the OP about how bad I feel.

I know you don’t have a choice. But you’re the driving force behind this legal process which has now taken on its own momentum.

Yeah, I get that.

Part of me wishes that I had never started this process.

But then I was being forced to stop breastfeeding by not being allowed to express at work and we thought going to mediation would solve it. It didn't. And it has snowballed from there.

But it is the manager / employer that has done that, not the OP!

I totally get why people still in employment won't stand up for ex-colleagues, but if they weren't prepared to tell the truth, they could have gone with "I know nothing, I have nothing to say, it wasn't my business". But having been in a similar situation where colleagues I regarded as friends lied through their teeth about me (and luckily I had proof they were lying) I have never trusted colleagues again. I'll be friendly, but not friends.

And I don’t think you can know how you would have responded if you were your former colleagues. It’s a difficult situation for everyone, but I think you need to cut them some slack and not depict them as the villains because they didn’t take up the cudgels for you. This tribunal will damage some or all of the friendships significantly p, anyway, regardless of outcome.

Oh, it sounds outrageous. I’m just saying, try to sit with your own discomfort about involving former colleagues and friends in this without demonising them.

I saw that you tacked that on at the end, but I took it to mean "It's shit that you are forcing me to do something that makes me look awful" rather than any real empathy.

How awful. I'm polite and friendly in work but I'm under no illusion id be walked over if needed so I keep things light and airy. One colleague tells everyone everything and I just think she's storing up trouble for herself.

I think my OP makes my feelings very clear. Don't know if you read it fully, but I was very clear in there, I think.

You disagree. That's fine. I know how I feel.

I know my partner thinks I feel too much guilt about it. You don't think I feel enough. I think I am in a better position to judge than you, but accept you can have your own opinion.

As someone who has been in an extraordinarily similar situation, OP: they weren't your friends. They were people you worked with who have thrown you under the bus. Now is the time to do the same - not that you have any choice, you must comply with your disclosure obligations. It will be shit and awful, but I promise you it will get better. I know it's really hard right now, but just think about how you'll feel when you can tell your child how you stood up for yourself. Sending unmumsnetty hugs