When do you become middle class?

[ForMintUser]

I was reading the “rich get richer” thread which made me think about something I have been wondering about, interested in other people’s opinions.

My parents came from working class, council house backgrounds, neither set of grandparents ever had much money, never owned a house.

Both parents left school with no qualifications, didn’t go on to further or higher education.

My father worked as a salesman, eventually got promoted to management and ended up working in senior management for a UK wide company.

I would say they were working class from birth but would probably be middle class now, jobs in management, home owners etc.

I would say I was raised middle class, there wasn’t a huge amount of money when we were children but certainly didn’t grow up in poverty, myself and siblings all went to university, have professional jobs.

I will say I recognise there is a lot of luck and timing in this (particularly in relation to house prices and the fact that my mother was able to be a SAHM because a family could live on one income then). I’m not a big believer in the idea that hard work always equals success, it does for some but not for others.

My question is, if they were born working class and are now middle class (happy to be corrected on that if people don’t agree) surely there needs to have been a point where you would say they had become middle class? So at what point do you become middle class?

Yes, Carole Middleton is the perfect example of someone who has worked her way up the social classes. She was born working class, married a middle class man and with luck, hard work, money and determination has risen up to the upper middles. Her choice of her children's education played a large part in this. Her brother Gary has been very financially successful too, but he is still working class. I would imagine that they have very different accents, behaviour, friendship groups, aspirations and interests.

When you realise that you can eat olive oil and it’s not just something you use to soften ear wax. My middle class friend 20 years ago showed 19 year old council estate me this, and introduced me to Brie, and stopped me peeling it, pesto, white sauce and many other middle class food delights, proper Eliza Doolittle territory “ar washed me face an ‘ands before I came I did”

I wish this whole country would stop using "gross" to describe something they don't like.

It's childish and an Americanism.

When you value education, travel and culture over 50" televisions?
When you encourage children to adopt good manners and become aware that they are not the centre of the universe and that other people have needs and feelings.
When a walk in the countryside, woods or at the seaside out-trumps a massively over-priced and "aimed at children by guilt-tripping their parents" commercial activity.
Where fostering your values is more important than keeping up with the internet.

I’d be more concerned about school shootings and the erosion of women’s rights than the class system, in that case.

I think it's all a load of bollocks (oops, showing my class there 😬)

If people who live on benefits can't call themselves working class, what are we? We're going for a term like "underclass"?

I'm a qualified teacher, currently working on my second university degree. We go to the theatre, go to see orchestras and are Nat Trust members. We love museums and galleries. I worked from when I was 12 until I had to stop aged 29. My social circle includes lecturers and accountants as well as fast food workers and delivery drivers. We are living on benefits.

We're all over the class system depending on your definition, which makes it inherently bullshit.

I'll take "underclass", though, because it's a meaningless concept.

People don’t talk about it in the uk either. Not in RL. Good grief hat would be dreadfully common. 😂

Good joke!

Have you never watched US Shameless? Or heard the term “trailer park trash”?

The US, home of the WASP. Where racial segregation was legal until 1964 and where informally it’s still a massive issue. Where Roe v Wade is being slowly eroded and where only the rich/ upper classes can pay to avoid the consequences of the laws they themselves enact on things like abortion. Where Donald Trump (the very epitome of inherited privilege) is running for office again, despite horrifically racist and misogynist views. I think I’d rather stick with the UK where you might just get judged for putting a milk bottle on the table!

Most (every) society has a class system, it’s just that we understand our own better than others so we don’t see those which exist abroad.

I’m solid middle class (dad was an academic, lived in leafy area, went to private school). I have always hated the Archers with a passion. I find a lot of of Radio 4 output off putting because of the gratuitous middle class-ness even though the content is fantastic. The demographic targeting is obvious and heavy handed.

These threads always end up as boring boast fests.
DP has 2 siblings, tradesmen or married to one, absolutely loaded, one owns a few rental properties, foreign hols several times a year. Money is for spending, certainly not on private education rather nights out, cars, false nails and Botox. Neither sent their kids to decent schools and not a single book in the house. One child has just had a baby at 19. I guess in time the ‘cultured’ aspect of being MC will wither away and it will just revolve around money.

There’s also a big difference between the northern and southern middle class. Back in the day went on a few posh skiing hols and it stood out massively.

Quite.

And I still don't know what a "leafy area" is, so I'm clearly not classy.

It’s very literal in its meaning, it turns out, and was a city planning tool - areas with tree lined streets are wealthier/middle class, areas without trees are poorer/more working class.

I read about it relatively recently, had never thought about it before.

This. Working class is anyone who has to work to live, who couldnt afford not to work, who believes its important to work hard. Then there are those who rarely or never work out of choice but rely on the state. And those who can afford to never work due to inherited money.

In my mind, class itself is how people treat others. Having class is about have respect for yourself and others, being proud of achievements but not showy/boastful, basing how you treat people from how they treat you, rather than on how they look etc

Oy! Leave my pug alone ! A brilliant read CLASS by Jilly Cooper.

Not IME
I am working class and I have friends who are very MC. They are pretty snobby tbh. They try and hide it but it invariably comes out. They were born and raised MC and still are.

I’m very much lower class and I’m losing sleep over school choices 😭.

When a significant portion of your income (but not > 50%) is not generated by your primary employment OR your primary employment is in professional white collar roles (teacher/lecturer/doctor/lawyer/accountant/architect/engineer/scientist etc) that requires at least degree level education (although this is shifting to a Masters as a minimum).

It is not intrinsically linked to high(er) income (see teachers/lecturers for example).

No,if you graduate you are still working class,however any children you have will be middle class.

Yes, quite literally leafy. My granddad came from what is pretty much inner city Manchester and moved here where there are many very old trees and lots of green and we look out onto the Peak District. Kinder Scout is visible from his house. It's still his house to me despite him passing away over 20 years ago. You can see the Swizzels factory too in the distance which is far less pretty. He wrote three books that I'm aware of and was a specialist in his rather niche field as was my dad. My dad loved tinned ravioli and stayed close to his WC roots. He had a massive chip on his shoulder about capitalists and capitalism and hated if anyone bettered themselves yet voted Tory 🤷🏼‍♀️
My eldest is revelling in moving away from here and embracing a Manchester/Stockport accent which are different I know but she somehow uses both which is not how she was raised. Our accents are northern but otherwise indiscernible.
Class discussions on here are always entertaining and makes me revisit lots of interesting conversations from my younger days.

I think it’s quite an outdated concept. Many years ago there was a big class divide and there was society and what they termed as old and new money and a lot of snobbery around this and social mobility was more limited.

I think the lines are more blurred now although there is still a divide between those that have money and those that don’t.

My parents were WC but home owners, DH parents were WC from a council estate. DH and I are home owners and not in traditional WC roles but I wouldnt define myself as WC or MC

Well, of course it’s a ‘made up construct’! Like caste, like nations, money, writing, religion, progress, law etc. That doesn’t mean it (a) doesn’t exist or (b) doesn’t have an impact on people’s lives.

Is there still a divide between the old polytechnics and what were called proper universities? Dd is looking at which universities to apply to and I was telling her how people looked down on the old polytechnics but I don't know if they still do.

She should primarily consider the reputation and ranking of the specific degree course she’s applying for, over the university’s. I used to teach at a former poly which generally ranked low, but had some courses which had maintained their outstanding reputation from the poly days.

First of all, I think class is largely bollocks.

But my interpretation is that social class is seen as something you are born into. So I think your parents would be working class. You would be working class too potentially depending on whether or not your dad was in a professional job when you were born. Your children would be middle class based on your educational and professional background.

@PinkBlouse veterinary medicine/science so not many to choose from.