I don't know what to think about this - Some parents need to be nannied by the state

[Another2Cats]

An article in yesterday's Times (share token below) with this title. I have thoughts both ways on this.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/d2c38325-db32-4e36-a213-6d84be59a2f0?shareToken=58b28456ef3641836cb2ba7f3f70c791

[redacted by MNHQ for copyright reasons]

I had my children in Liverpool in one of the most deprived areas in the country let alone the city.

My local Sure Start was connected to a primary school and was hugely popular, so from a purely anecdotal position I can say that's not my experience at all!

I agree with this. The kind of people who should’ve been at SureStart never went!

Feckless, shitty parents don’t want be helped to be better.

At first glance the article seems fair, but I think it's pretty woolly really, and it's a bit lazy to so uncritically stigmatise poor white British parents. Just by turning up here, immigrant families have already self-selected out of everyone back home for ambition and aspiration, so their children are more likely to be pushed to do well in education than their white counterparts in all income brackets. At every level from Kumon to independent schools the % of kids from non-white British backgrounds is much higher than the local average population.

I wonder if the government should be looking to factors at home in aspirational but low-income non-white British families for inspiration rather than Cambridge graduates who read The Times.

@Namechange83649 I really disagree with the genetics thing. Yes, some people are just not bright enough to get a PhD in physics from Harvard, but I don't believe that being a bit dim and having unworldly parents should condemn a young person to uneducated poverty. We see plenty of very dim people with well off parents doing well in life all around us, so clearly the difference is about nurture and being prodded into the right career path.

I find that odd as my kids have due to moved had 3 NHS dentists and every one asked about toothpaste we used - even brushes as they favoured electric - and diet.

I did have one with weaker than usual milk teeth enamel - but dentist couldn't find a reason and could only suggest viral infection either in pg or in early childhood as these things sometimes just happen. They coated the teeth every visit and adult teeth came though fine.

.

I come from a background where university, education and even reading for pleasure was not for people in my family. I was the odd one out and had a gift for academia. Despite all the odds I went to uni.
And dropped out.
A combination of no money (student finance expecting parents to contribute, and one parent dead, the other an alcoholic druggie in and out of prison), lack of understanding about academic processes (what the fuck is a viva, dissertation etc, no idea what that was utnil I was told I had to do one), and simply not fitting in (never went skiing, couldn't drive, didn't go home for the holidays because I had no home).
For a long time I blamed myself, only now in my mid-30s I realise I never really had a chance.
I am childless, but my siblings not so. I see my siblings making the same mistakes as my parents did, not valuing education, bad-mouting the schools and teachers, not bothering to go through homework with them, not monitoring the kids social media and friendship groups, and worse.
It's ingrained into the cultural fabric of the family and I have no idea where to even begin to undo generations worth of experiences and expectations.

The good thing about Surestart is that it wasn't selective, it was also a melting pot of people, who all, on the surface, just had parenting in common. The comments above suggest that some parents don't know what opportunities exist out of their own bubble, so mixing with people from different walks of life is beneficial, it also helps promote racial integration and understanding the experiences of parents whose children have additional needs. It also means you don't have to declare yourself as "officially struggling", which would rule out anyone wary of seeking professional help or who felt their needs weren't enough to warrant it.

Also being middle class doesn't mean you are not struggling, abused, parenting badly, have lots of support etc. I'm firmly working class, DH middle class, we had no spare cash but lived in
what was deemed a nicer area. I had PND and some days I struggled to get off the couch, but a local group (not actually Surestart, but the same idea) gave me somewhere to go at the suggestion of my HV. I breast fed for two years because of the intial support I had there. Should I not have benefitted because I was seen to have more?

That was definitely the Tory reason for shutting children's centres, but it wasn't my experience of working in one with a nursery attached.
Yes, there were some middle class parents that attended - which was fine, they're people too. They were part of the community. Their children would be going to school with the working class children so why shouldn't they go to playgroup and nursery with them?
There was a limit on how many paying places there were in the nursery for example, I think 25% self funded 75% funded for 2 year olds.

The vast majority of families supported were ones in need - teen parent groups, English for speakers of other languages, supporting your child with maths homework, parenting classes, breastfeeding support - but also some toddler groups or baby massage available for the whole community.

I absolutely agree that trade jobs are a valid and valuable choice....but saying that they are the ONLY choices for "the likes of us" is neither valid not valuable.

Sure Start

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/sure-start-achieved-its-aims-then-we-threw-it-away#:~:text=Introduced%20in%201999%2C%20it%20was,their%20life%20chances%20and%20development.

It’s truly depressing that we managed to create something that genuinely made a difference and then threw away all the progress that had been made.

There really needs to be more support in schools too. TAs in every class, small catch up groups.

My youngest has a disability that means he has missed quite a bit of school time, it is shocking to see how quickly a child falls behind educationally and even more shocking that there is no mechanism for lifting them back up again. We have managed as I have had long periods out of work to support him. Initially he was just pushed into lower and lower sets. But we scrimped for tutors and we could help. Now he is older he can catch himself up.
But for those kids whose parents can't provide that? And the children who start out already behind, how can they ever catch up.

Indeed. Also see: state education.

Plus the ehcp process you pretty much need a law degree to navigate the system and understand the children and families act and how to appeal to tribunal. Children with very clear needs are turned down for ehcp assessments and many parents just aren’t capable of going to appeal. But instead of recognising that as an issue and helping all children it’s been been dressed up as more parent blaming, “middle class parents gaming their system to get their children a golden ticket ehcp”

I was surprised by the pp’s view. I remember when the coalition government came in and took a wrecking ball to public services, particularly those that aimed to reduce inequality. A lot of it was an ostentatious effort to show that there was a regime change and to dismantle the attempts of the previous administration to - ironically - level up. There was no evidence behind closing Sure Start. It was ideological nastiness.

Chippy, much? 🤔🤣

I completely disagree.

Overwhelmingly parents from ALL social backgrounds want their children to have good lives and be happy.

But in some communities educational failure is so culturally normalised that parents simply can't perceive the damage that's being done.

Or they simply can't find a way of making things change for the better.

Blaming the poor educational outcomes of white working class children in the UK on nothing more than the character failings of their parents leaves us nowhere.

It is ridiculous that in the 21st century schools are having to do teeth brushing for whole classes + potty train kids.
There is a significant minority of parents who simply believe that it isn't their job to parent their own children and that the state should do everything. I'm sorry but no matter how poor you are you can afford toothpaste + a basic brush for your child (£2 for a basic kids brush + tube of toothpaste).
The more the state (schools) step in then the bigger the incentive is for that minority of parents to continue not to bother.
Sure Starts were great and we need them back but ultimately some people won't take the help.

My children are older - youngest is a late teen - but there could be all sorts of issues. I think parents of young children definitely have a lot less time to spend at home now. When I first became a parent, one parent tended to have a lot more time off work for the first few years, or worked 2 or 3 days a week at most. Our local nursery only accepted children from age 2 at the earliest. I didn't know any parents with a baby at nursery, for example. Not being available does make things like potty training more difficult.

I think children do get an expectation of what they might do when they grow up from parents though. In some families it's just the norm to go to university, so they expect to do it. Or it is the norm in their friendship group. Parents can definitely subtly affect life choices, whether they mean to or not.

It wasn't just the centres though, there was a scheme where volunteers went into family homes, for a couple of hours a week, as say a grandmother or aunty would, to support families who had no extended family support, very young mothers who had been in care, or other difficult family situations. So better off families wouldn't be offered this.

I don't know why people become so fixated on the closure of Sure Start when one of the principal reasons they were closed was that they were used primarily by the middle-class parents who didn't need them

The principal reason they closed was because the Coalition government at the time wanted to save a lot of money as part of the austerity drive.

I think children do get an expectation of what they might do when they grow up from parents though. In some families it's just the norm to go to university, so they expect to do it. Or it is the norm in their friendship group. Parents can definitely subtly affect life choices, whether they mean to or not

This is very true. I also think that teachers play a big role though - how many times have celebrities talked about their teachers inspiring them - or indeed the opposite and saying they'd never amount to anything.

People always say "you can't be what you can't see" but actually I think that's untrue. You can't be what other people tell you you can't be. It's down to parents, teachers and other adults in kids' lives to encourage them to aspire to things.

I did this 🙂 I loved it. If it was a proper paid job I would have retrained to do it professionally

It was such a good idea to invest in the early years and apparently research showed that the positive effects were still showing when kids who been to Sure Start centres reached GCSE age. My ex had a niece who was a young single mum and Sure Start turned her life around, she made friends, got support and felt far more confident in her parenting. They weren't around when I was a single mum but if they had been I don't doubt I would have used and benefitted from it

You're thinking of the charity Home Start - it wasn't related to Sure Start and still successfully operates across the country.