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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Police officer cleared

861 replies

Toomanywars · 21/10/2024 18:39

Martin Blake police officer today cleared by a jury of unlawful killing of Chris Kaba

Should police officers get more support. Perhaps not release name until after trial or inquiry.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
MilletOver · 23/10/2024 09:29

Nolongera · 23/10/2024 09:13

Community it traumatised, we shouldn't focus on Mr Kabas criminality apparently, they could have shot the tyres out.

Wonder if they are on here?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3dvdmzxz82o

Are they traumatised about the night club shooting he did too?

Just read this, drives me wild.

The BBC, with their naice reported who brave it to Croydon, put up this highly inflammatory headline and then go on to report views many of which are quite nuanced.

And manage not to interview the black mothers that a PP referenced who clear up after these gangs slash shoot and recruit their victims.

The community does have mistrust in the police.

’the community’ are also the first line victims of the criminals the police are up against.

This sort of sensationalist crap is so unhelpful.

Orphlids · 23/10/2024 09:54

I imagine there’s a group of police firearms instructors crowding round a computer screen at this very moment, frantically scribbling in their notebooks. “Quick, guys! There’s a Mumsnet thread on here with some bloody excellent suggestions - use a taser… shoot the offender in the arm… [and my personal favourite] shoot the tyres!” No doubt the Met will be updating their whole approach to firearms tactics thanks to the suggestions on here.

If a brain surgeon operates on a high risk patient and the patient dies, I hope there will be a thread for similarly bonkers suggestions for how such deaths could be avoided in the future. That scenario seems ridiculous, doesn’t it?

VickyPollard25 · 23/10/2024 09:57

ItsTheGAGGGGGGGGG · 23/10/2024 08:59

Maybe read my additional posts?

I don’t need to. What you said was wrong. Maybe do some research before posting incorrect blanket statements.

VickyPollard25 · 23/10/2024 10:01

Nolongera · 23/10/2024 08:37

"bUt hE LovED hiS mUm, hE wAs gOiNG to bE anarCHitekt."

Cop is a hero, criminal died due to his own choices in a lawful stop, end of.

The vehicle was stopped based on intelligence ( accurate as it turns out) it had been involved in recent shootings.

Mr Kaba would have been well aware that his arrest would likely lead to an extremely long stretch, attempt murder with a firearm in a crowded club he is looking at 30 years.

Possibly as a result of this he decided to fight his way out.

I am sorry for his family but he made these choices.

Cop is a hero. 100% I watched the video of the shooting this morning and I cannot imagine how hard it would be to do that job.

They are incredibly brave men (and women) dealing with the dregs of society who bring nothing but fear and violence.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/10/2024 10:04

It's quite perverse that nobody seems to be asking how the gang violence of Kaba and associates gets tackled, and instead the attention is focusing on the police response

Probably because it's so much easier to blame "everyone else" and that tackling gang violence is largely an issue for the community themselves - who, as several black posters have rightly reminded us, are far more affected than most

VickyPollard25 · 23/10/2024 10:06

JRSKSSBH · 23/10/2024 09:11

That would be the family who nurtured a violent criminal, a man who beat up a pregnant woman, who extorted money from immigrant women, who shot a firearm in a packed nightclub? My sympathy for them is also tempered by the knowledge that they may have profited from his gang connections and status. My sympathy is also limited by their attempt to manipulate the media narrative and suppress the reality of the who CK was.

Exactly right. The female versions of him.

Zimunya · 23/10/2024 10:06

"The issue is that the police shot and killed an unarmed person..."

He wasn't unarmed. He was armed with a three ton Audi that he was driving directly at police officers.

ItsTheGAGGGGGGGGG · 23/10/2024 10:07

VickyPollard25 · 23/10/2024 09:57

I don’t need to. What you said was wrong. Maybe do some research before posting incorrect blanket statements.

😴 if you bothered to scroll down, you would have seen that I stated that prison is indeed for punishment as someone rightly corrected me. Not everything needs to be an argument on here. Sometimes people get things wrong and will happily be corrected. Some people like you, just want to have an argument. Goodbye

notimagain · 23/10/2024 10:10

Zimunya · 23/10/2024 10:06

"The issue is that the police shot and killed an unarmed person..."

He wasn't unarmed. He was armed with a three ton Audi that he was driving directly at police officers.

Agree.

I believe in some contexts (e.g. some of the discussions around prevention of terrorism) you’ll see the expression “Vehicle as a Weapon” (VAW).

ThatsNotMyTeen · 23/10/2024 10:10

Yes they knew he was unarmed after the incident but given his propensity for carrying and discharging firearms there was a real risk he could have had one. The cop made a split second decision on the spur of the moment. Better a piece of scum like Kaba died than the police or members of the public, if it was inevitable someone was going to

Uricon2 · 23/10/2024 10:10

I was bought up in a big city in the 1970s, had a lot of black schoolfriends and remember absolutely shocking instances of how some of their male relatives were treated by the police under the sus law. I'm certain there are sadly and indefensibly still victims of racist policing.

Chris Kaba isn't one of them and his family attempting to promote a false narrative to hide his criminal career are doing their entire community a huge disservice.

Grantanow · 23/10/2024 10:13

I think the officer should be compensated for the unnecessary prosecution either from public funds or by a public collection organised by a charity and receive a medal. All firearms officers should hand in their weapons until officers are protected from unnecessary prosecutions.

Kendodd · 23/10/2024 10:26

Nolongera · 23/10/2024 09:13

Community it traumatised, we shouldn't focus on Mr Kabas criminality apparently, they could have shot the tyres out.

Wonder if they are on here?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3dvdmzxz82o

Are they traumatised about the night club shooting he did too?

In fairness to people in the community not speaking out against the criminal gangs like CKs that terrorise them, it's probably just to dangerous for them to do so. They can safely criticise the police and 'society' that they say does not value them. Can you imagine anyone of them speaking out and publicly naming gang members like CK though, they'd be dead. They would be putting lives of their kids at risk as well. Much easier and safer to criticise, probably anyone else in the entire world that the people who are a real danger to them and their children and really don't value them.

Kendodd · 23/10/2024 10:27

Workhardcryharder · 23/10/2024 08:19

Not only did she raise a violent criminal, but she refuses to place any accountability on him, it’s everyone else’s fault her son died.

Wonder how he ended up the way he did..

Have the family said anything since his criminality became public?

OnlyTheBravest · 23/10/2024 10:35

@Nolongera I just read that article and it actually highlights the biggest issue. The media constantly promote people who 'speak for the community' except they do not. The 'black' community does not exist as one united group, it never has. The vast majority are not traumatised by the Kaba case. All I will say is that this vigil had 150 people max. The vigil for Elianne Andam closed roads and hundreds gathered.

A larger portion of the 'black' community want an end to knife/gang related crime, fully understand that if you are a criminal (regardless of skin colour) soon or later you will encounter the police but also understand that there are historic issues with police enforcement and want change.

HerGorgeousMajestyArabellaScott · 23/10/2024 10:37

Kendodd · 23/10/2024 10:26

In fairness to people in the community not speaking out against the criminal gangs like CKs that terrorise them, it's probably just to dangerous for them to do so. They can safely criticise the police and 'society' that they say does not value them. Can you imagine anyone of them speaking out and publicly naming gang members like CK though, they'd be dead. They would be putting lives of their kids at risk as well. Much easier and safer to criticise, probably anyone else in the entire world that the people who are a real danger to them and their children and really don't value them.

Yes.

Justsayit123 · 23/10/2024 10:38

Many jump on the bandwagon.

Many speak when they have no clue about the situation or another agenda, from Greenwich university talking about him as a promising architect (ha ha) to the shit spoken by khan, Corbyn and others. It’s a disgrace.

WalkingThroughTreacle · 23/10/2024 10:43

MilletOver · 23/10/2024 09:29

Just read this, drives me wild.

The BBC, with their naice reported who brave it to Croydon, put up this highly inflammatory headline and then go on to report views many of which are quite nuanced.

And manage not to interview the black mothers that a PP referenced who clear up after these gangs slash shoot and recruit their victims.

The community does have mistrust in the police.

’the community’ are also the first line victims of the criminals the police are up against.

This sort of sensationalist crap is so unhelpful.

Agreed. With so much tension around this case you'd think they'd me more responsible in their reporting, and I suspect the BBC are far from the worst.

Taking one excerpt from the article:

On Croydon High Street, Maureen Patterson, 68, said she was "shocked at the verdict".
"I hear what the policeman had to say, that he felt that he and his colleagues were in danger, but the thing is he shot him in the head," she said.
She added Mr Kaba's history did not make her feel differently, because "at the time the police didn't know - they were just going after the car".
"He could have shot the tyres, he could have shot anything else, but he shot to kill."

What relevance is the opinion of some random pensioner on the high street? Especially when it is littered with factually inaccurate nonsense that the wider article makes no attempt to fact check?

"at the time the police didn't know - they were just going after the car". Yes, but they were going after the car specifically because it had been identified as being used in a criminal shooting the day before. No, they did not know for sure and certain that the occupant was armed but on the balance of probabilities it was very much a possibility that they had to consider - that's why multiple armed police were tasked and not just a couple of unarmed PCs. Even then, the officer didn't just shoot because the car had been flagged, he shot in response to the actions of the driver, namely that he tried to evade arrest by using his vehicle as a weapon, thus presenting an immediate threat to the lives of the officers present.

"He shot him in the head". Big effing deal. Firearms Officers are trained first and foremost to take a "conventional shot", that is to aim at the central body mass (upper torso) where the majority of critical organs are located. A successful conventional shot is very likely to prove fatal and that is the intention. Where a conventional shot is not possible/practical (i.e. in this case where the target's torso is at least partially protected by the structure of the vehicle, steering wheel etc) then a head shot (if possible) is the recommended alternative. The officer did what he was trained to do and that training is based on hard science and decades of operational experience, not the ramblings of some Croydon shopper.

"He could have shot the tyres". No, he shouldn't have. He had made the decision that the individual in the car represented an immediate threat to the lives of his colleagues and the wider public. He has to defend that decision but having made it, shooting the tyres would have been a ridiculous option to consider. First and foremost, except in very specific circumstances, our police are are armed with (in layman's terms) fairly soft rounds. As they are operating in urban environments, they do not want rounds passing right through their target, or walls etc, and injuring/killing someone else. Car tyres are very tough. The most likely outcome of shooting at the tire would have been a still intact tyre and a flattened round ricocheting off, still with enough energy to maim or kill someone in the near vicinity (such as one of the many officers surrounding the vehicle). Even if he had managed to shoot out tyres, that would not have mitigated the threat he was concerned with.

"...but he shot to kill". There is no shoot-to-kill versus shoot-to-wound debate to be had. When a firearms officer discharges their weapon at an individual they have made a conscious decision to use lethal force. The death of the target is the presumed outcome. The only discussion that really needs to be had is whether lethal force was justified in the circumstances or not.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 23/10/2024 10:58

@@elprup watch X, I think the contents of that letter might break today. From what I've read, the gist is that the jurors were hugely critical of the fact that the case was brought at all.

VickyPollard25 · 23/10/2024 11:13

ItsTheGAGGGGGGGGG · 23/10/2024 10:07

😴 if you bothered to scroll down, you would have seen that I stated that prison is indeed for punishment as someone rightly corrected me. Not everything needs to be an argument on here. Sometimes people get things wrong and will happily be corrected. Some people like you, just want to have an argument. Goodbye

But that’s not what happened, is it? Instead of acknowledging you were wrong you suggested I read your other posts, which were basically arguments with other posters 😂

EsmaCannonball · 23/10/2024 12:24

We live in an age where the loudest voices and the most sensationalist voices get heard. Polling data in America around the time that the idea of defunding or abolishing the police was gaining traction showed that it was not a popular concept among black working class people because they are disproportionately the victims of crime.

It's stories like that of Chris Kaba and the political and media narrative around it that play into the hands of Donald Trump and the Reform Party. Scolding people for their reasonable opinions (that it is acceptable for the police to shoot an extremely violent career criminal while he is in the process of using his vehicle as a deadly weapon) and trying to shame people into adopting views that go against the public good only serves to turn those people away from mainstream politics. People at the centre of politics need to stop their ground being hijacked by those with loud but fringe views.

JRSKSSBH · 23/10/2024 12:29

Shame on Sadiq Khan for seeking to weaponise this situation, who lied about him being an innocent man and vilified the police for doing their job.

JRSKSSBH · 23/10/2024 12:41

Orangeaperitif · 23/10/2024 09:11

I wish the BBC or Guardian had found a voice like yours or the poster you quoted when they reported about the feelings of the community.

After all the harm and terror Kaba and his gang bring to their community, seeing his family being paraded as some sort of community voice (and, unsurprisingly, steering the discussion away from gang violence) must feel incredibly disempowering.

His family pushed for a gagging order on the press regarding Chris's character and activities. They then portrayed him as a lovely man with big hopes for the future - the aspiring architect, expectant father, blah blah. They're utterly shameless and cynical. Kaba shot someone days before in a crowded public space, he could have killed anyone - how profoundly reckless He was told to get out of the car numerous times by armed police and yet he tried to ram them off the road. To say that he was unarmed is wrong. He was armed with a multi-tonne car.

You have to wonder at the agenda exposed by this episode. Lefty activists in the CPS, an ideologue Mayor, the BLM lurking behind Justice for Chris Kaba, a supine media.

Nolongera · 23/10/2024 12:48

After the initial shooting.
The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, said: “My thoughts are with Chris Kaba’s family, friends and loved ones today. Chris had his whole life ahead of him and his death has had a huge impact on Londoners, and in particular Black Londoners, with anger, pain and fear felt across communities, along with a desire for change and justice.

“It was vital that the IOPC fully investigated all the evidence before making a decision, and now that they have referred this case to the CPS, I hope it will be considered as swiftly as possible.”

Post acquittal

The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, said: “I respect the decision made by the jury today following a full examination of a large amount of evidence – including video from the incident.

“In London, we police by consent. When anyone loses their life following contact with the police, it's important that it is properly and thoroughly investigated, which is what’s happened in this case.

“Firearms officers work under the most extraordinary pressure, carrying with them unique responsibilities and often putting themselves in harm’s way to protect others.

“I understand the impact Chris Kaba’s death has had on London’s communities and the anger, pain and fear it has caused. I send my heartfelt sympathies to Chris Kaba’s family, friends and the wider community once again.

“There’s clearly still a wider lack of trust in the police, particularly within the Black community, that needs to be addressed. As Mayor, I will continue to work with the Government to support and hold the Metropolitan Police to account to ensure any lessons are learnt and the Met commands the trust of all Londoners as we build a safer London for everyone.”

What a fucking slime ball.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 23/10/2024 12:50

If I was a Met police officer I'd feel utterly betrayed and unsupported by Khan.

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