To say no to covid vaccine for DS?

[Clarabell77]

My DS10 has asthma - mild albeit a chest infection 14 months ago ended up in an overnight in hospital on a nebuliser/steroid and he’s had to have a steroid once during that time for another infection.

He’s been identified as being at risk and offered a Covid vaccine. I’m not sure whether to allow him to have it as I’m sure he’s had Covid quite a few times when we’ve all tested positive at home - can’t test him as he won’t let me near him with a swab. He’s had mild symptoms, even when ours weren’t.

He’s had the flu vaccine twice and taken unwell within weeks on both occasions so I’ve opted out of that one this year. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Covid one? Ideally someone who has actual knowledge, not from YouTube, I’m not a covid denier or anti vaxxer.

AIBU to not get him the vaccine?

Sadly this is i great point, @Longma

Many PPs focussed on the risks of the vaccine ate ignoring the point you and others are making, that Covid itself confers the same risks. Emerging research is showing that the risks for Covid tend to be more serious.

I am sorry for everyone with a health outcome linked to either Covid or, possibly, a vaccine

Granted the government did mess up big time with PPE and there was skull duggery going on - but working in the field myself, I cannot bring myself to believe that it's all a big con. I know scientists who are involved in the research/vaccine development and I fully 100% trust their motives.

Vaccines have made the world a much safer place, particularly for children and poorer nations - and its no coincidence that all the conspiracy theories only happended after the covid vaccine and I suspect because of the availability of nonsence on the internet.

Can you imagine how much more damage and deaths would have occurred if Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent MMR research had happened more recently - tik tok would have imploded!

Never forget that you can pass Covid from one person to the next, especially if you aren't vaccinated. Also, Covid is still evolving. It seems a small price to pay to keep it at bay from those of us who could be badly affected.

Or smallpox!

I've recently completed consent for my DCs to have their annual flu spray.

DS1 is invited to have the Covid vaccine due to being autistic. I decline. Autism covers a huge range of development and health outcomes. As a healthy teenager in better than average health compared to his NT peers, at a personal level I don't see an elevated health risk to him at a personal level. The system generating the invitation letters does not know DS at a personal level to know the difference between a typical teenager and one whose developmental needs significantly affects their physical health.

DS2 is asthmatic and not invited to date. His asthma is usually well controlled although has escalated after illness. I know of twice that he's tested positive for Covid, but he hasn't actually been ill with it. If he struggled more with the impacts of respiritory illness, then I might be more persuadable of the benefits to him.

My trust in Covid vaccines has never really recovered from the early days when the discussion about them was so toxic. There were vaccine injuries, and like so many aspects of the Covid response, it became impossible to have reasonable discussion about negative impacts alongside the benefits.

I did have the standard doses in 2021, and ended up more ill from the vaccines than the twice I've had the actual illness. I know someone whose immune response shortly after their vaccine ended up atacking their nervous system and ended up in ICU for 3 months, off work for over a year and has had to relearn basic functions such as walking again. That is a highly unusual effect but it is associated with vaccine injury, and his syndrome was more prevelant than usual in 2021. I don't expect another 1:1,000,000 reaction, but it still doesn't fill me with confidence either.

At a population level, the vaccines had a use in 2021 of a generally lower risk of exposing the population's immune system to Covid, but with our family's state of health and risk factors, the risk of serious illness is low, and our immune systems have coped with the illness. Therefore the benefit to us is on the lower side.

I'm not saying never. If the state of the DC's health changes, I'm happy to reassess. The DCs are also at an age where their opinion matters.

There's risk to every decision. We take risks constantly because we're confident that the benefits of the action (or inaction) outweigh their risk. Neither having the vaccine nor having the illness is risk-free. For many people invited, their risk/ benefit profile is far more clear. It's also not a vaccine that dramatically cuts the chance of illness, just potentially the risk of more serious illness.

The flu vaccine I feel differently about as it's been established for many more years and hasn't made us more ill than the illness it protects us from. We haven't had negative experiences of it to change our habits of accepting it.

in regards to being more sick from the vaccine than the illness - that is entirely how vaccines work? They train your immune system - so you’ve reacted to the vaccine, your immune system is prepared because it’s experienced it before , and then when you catch it - your response is less severe.

the ‘ the vaccine worked as it was designed so I’m not doing it again’ argument is baffling to me!

the sheer amount of privilege on this thread is unreal - it’s wonderful so many people are in the privileged position that they can miss as much work as they need if they or their children get unwell, have child care if one child ended up in hospital - but it seems like people just totally lack the comprehension that is not the case for many of us.

@Clarabell77 I was the poster earlier who said I have experience in this area, I've only just had a chance to catch up. I have a degree in medical sciences which included the study of infectious diseases, immunology and public health. I'm not an expert by any stretch but I do have knowledge.

Children are generally at lower risk of severe covid symptoms, but children with asthma are more at risk of complications and hospital admissions:

'the risk of admission to hospital with COVID-19 is increased in children with a diagnosis of asthma in their primary care records, particularly when they have previously been admitted to hospital with asthma (HR 6·40 [95% CI 3·27–12·53]) or have required two or more courses of oral corticosteroids (3·53 [1·87–6·67]) in the 24 months before the study start date (March 1, 2020).6' https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00509-9/fulltext

Children with asthma also have a higher risk of developing long covid than children without respiratory conditions:

We found that allergic diseases in children were also associated with a higher risk of long Covid. This is in agreement with adult studies from Russia [2] and the UK [21] reporting asthma to be associated with development of long Covid. Recent data suggested that COVID-19 consequences may be linked with the mast cell activation syndrome [25*] and the Th-2 biased immunological response in children with allergic diseases may be responsible for an increased risk of long-term consequences from the infection.

*The author defines allergic diseases as the presence of asthma, allergic rhinitis, eczema or food allergy.
https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/early/2021/06/10/13993003.01341-2021

There's evidence that covid can trigger autoimmune diseases https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9969758/#s0200. Other viral infections can do this too, but covid is likely to trigger a bigger, more complex immune response than a common cold for example, which increases the risk. There is also an interesting phenomenon known as 'molecular mimicry'. Many SARS-Cov-2 antigens are similar in shape/structure to human antigens. This can sometimes confuse the body and lead it to mistake its own antigens for viral 'invader' ones, in which case the body might begin to attack its own tissues. molecular mimicry between SARS-CoV-2 and human antigens occurs in a significant quantity. The vaccine can also potentially do this, but the risk is extremely low in comparison.

You're obviously already aware of the risks associated with asthma and chest infections. The airway inflammation in asthma makes the lungs more vulnerable to infections, so if you add Covid on top of that and he develops respiratory symptoms, there's potentially a risk of more severe asthma symptoms, bacterial infections, complications etc.

I would also add that every vaccine comes with risks, just as every medication comes with risks. Have a read of the leaflet that comes with your ibuprofen.

I hope that's helped a bit.

This is so incredibly unlikely statistically that I find it hard to believe, I'm sorry.

Tethered Cord Syndrome has been associated with Covid-19* I suspect this is a much higher risk than from the vaccine. Given the huge amount of data we have from vast numbers of people.

If we were to believe the Daily Mail comments section then every other person we meet would be a scrounging illegal immigrant who is simultaneously taking our jobs. London would have the highest crime rates in the country and would be being run under sharia law. Wearing a mask would cause cancer, unless you're wearing it while setting fire to hotels housing migrants and the BBC would be run by communists. Oh, and everyone from an ethic background lives on benefits in a mansion.

*pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7981271/

I know what I did thanks. I read what I could find at the time and looked for peer reviewed medical data, not anything in the press. I also spoke to family members working in both the NHS and medical research. I am very happy with my decision not to let this vaccine anywhere near my children. Everyone must do what they think is best.

She did actually say what I stated that she said. I’m not making anything up. I’m simply pointing out that distrust grew and why.

I'm all for people exercising some critical thinking, especially where big pharma and government is concerned. Yet we've got a huge pharmaceutical company giving 300m quid to the government to use their drug in a trial which is likely to guide our government's approach to tackling obesity and barely anyone is raising as much as an eyebrow.

That's a partial review of literature, not research, but I take your point. I wouldn't feel confident in using that to influence anybody else though. Which I fear your absolutism might.

That is a really good point. The only outrage I have seen about that on MN is because of the (mistaken) perception that "unemployed people are going to get the fat jab for free".

Yes I’m aware of that thanks. That’s not why I made the point. The fact is, at the time, no one knew what the side effects of the covid vaccines were. People know that all medications have side effects and yet any potential side effects, short or long term were being downplayed or not discussed at all. This, Understandably lead to fear and distrust. The people who were fearful and distrustful were made to feel stupid and conspiracy minded when often times they were questioning the safety of a vaccination when its long term safety record was unknown. None of that was helpful. To anyone. It lead to fear, misinformation, suppression of information, public distrust, divide and a real nastiness where you were seen to be stupid/ignorant or selfish if you dared to question it or hold back from getting it and you were sensible and responsible if you did. This was wrong. I do understand that all medications have side effects. That wasn’t the point I was making. I have no axe to grind for myself I’m just observing what I saw happening.

Yes, quite worrying that they have been misinformed about my child, find it quite pushy.

Risk v benefit is quite complex. You need to incorporate the fact that Covid itself causes the same side effects as the vaccine, and more. Emerging research suggests that effects from Covid are more likely to be serious.

Covid is also linked to effects not correlated with the vaccine, such as the post-Covid spike of 30% in the rate of heart attack and stroke amongst young adults.

However I am not aware of research about whether the same people are likely to get serious side effects from Covid as from the vaccine. Ie if you think you got a bad side effect from the vaccine, would you have got it from Covid? Vice versa? (Which is theoretically less likely)

Misinformed or they know something you don't - always wroth keeping and open mind

But if your child has asthma a flu jab may be life saving, and can certainly avoid a lot of pain and distress

Also, I hadn’t heard of this programme. A quick look through my hospital website and page I can’t find anything. I’m not on a ward and not frontline, I work in an office. I found it quite pushy and intrusive that they were coming into our office asking us if we wanted it. Thank goodness they u-turned on making it mandatory for NHS staff.

The covid vaccine is no different in that respect to any other vaccine. They don't exactly advertise the side effects of the MMR vaccine when running campaigns to increase uptake. Same with the flu vaccine. However, people don't seem to have the same reaction to that. You just have to look at any threads where the poster is thinking of not getting the MMR. You would think they were personally going out murdering babies.

Governments are looking at things from a population level rather than an individual level. The more people are vaccinated for flu, measles, etc. the better at a population level. Covid is the same.

*He’s had the flu vaccine twice and taken unwell within weeks on both occasions so I’ve opted out of that one this year.
If he has taken unwell within weeks of having the vaccine is not the vaccine that made him ill.
Personally I would let him have all the recommended vaccines. If he has asthma both flu and Covid could be dangerous

You are more likely to get a blood clot from Covid infection than from the vaccine. Secondly the vaccine many have a very rare side effect of a clot but it actually indirectly reduces the chance of clot if you are infected by Covid.
You are at more risk of getting a clot by not being vaccinated!

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11177983/

I appreciate that. I’m speaking about covid though - it was a very different beast across the board of how everything was handled. That’s the point I’m making- I think it’s pretty obvious that it was different and that’s what I’m saying. I’m actually exhausted today and I don’t have it in me to keep making the same point only to be misunderstood deliberately.

Yes, the incubation period for influenza is 1-4 days, so whatever illness he had (tonsillitis I think?) wouldn't have been related to his vaccination.