AIBU to think the jabs won't help the economy?

[EuclidianGeometryFan]

To add to the debate on weight loss jabs and the economy, try this thought experiment:
Suppose everyone who is overweight gets the jabs, for as long as they want, and they all get slim and lose their appetites.
The NHS saves a fortune.
But the supermarkets lose a fortune, and the take-away shops and fast-food restaurants, and the pubs and corner-shops selling late-night drinks and chocolate, and the delivery drivers rushing pizzas to our doors.

Any big supermarket has whole aisles dedicated to crisps, fizzy drinks, sweets, cakes, ready-made fat-laden food. It probably takes up about 3/4 of the floor space. Will no-one buy all this?

Surely the loss to the economy in the food industry will be greater than the savings to the NHS?

Or is the thinking that we will still buy as much crap food, then get it home and half way through eating it think 'I don't fancy this now' and bin it?
Will we just be adding massively to the food waste issue?

I get that the government is trying to address a huge issue, but they need to consider all aspects, and accept that the right solutions for society won't necessarily boost the economy.

Weight loss drugs will not suddenly make employers hire unemployed people. The drugs might help people in some circumstances (whether employed or not) and perhaps should be offered when appropriate. But not without also addressing the root causes.

First, because tackling the symptom and not the cause isn't the answer to anything. Obesity or anything else.

Secondly, loads of overweight people are in work, and separately many unemployed people aren't overweight. It varies.

Returning to my first point. A weight loss drug won't address the physical (or mental) health condition or environmental/social issue, poverty or chronic stress etc, that's caused obesity. That problem will still be there and still need addressing.

For example, someone who's gained weight due to limited mobility or pain caused by their health condition will still be unable to work unless and until they have timely and effective NHS diagnoses and treatment (and sometimes will be too unwell to work precisely because of the long wait to be seen by the right expert).

Or the person ill - physically or mentally - due to chronic stress - including caused by poverty and/or bad housing (obviously though poverty isn't the only cause of chronic stress).

Or unable to afford to eat healthily, because of limited access to shops selling affordable healthy food.

Weight loss drugs won't change any of the above issues. A supportive benefits system, better access to affordable healthy food, decent affordable housing aka council housing, and timely and good healthcare including mental health support, would however address these issues.

@Windchimesandsong you should feed all of that into Lilly, who are funding the trial to see if they will reduce worklessness and NHS usage.

@MargoLivebetter I guess if Lilly are interested, maybe I will? And perhaps the trial will help with the issues. We'll see.

I think it could potentially help people, as long as there's a holistic approach. Which obviously couldn't be done by Lilly alone (and that's not Lilly's responsibility). The NHS and government and local authorities would need to work together, as well as the Lilly trial. I guess we'll see what happens next.

I was just saying on another thread. I don't necessarily think people shouldn't, when appropriate, be offered the weight loss drugs. However, like with any issue, there's a need to treat it holistically - and to address the causes not only the symptoms.

As for "worklessness" (sorry for quote marks - I don't mean it as a dig at you, I just strongly dislike that term).

With unemployment, employers have a large role to play. Employers will need to be willing to overcome their widespread discrimination against disabled or older jobseekers, and also the discrimination against candidates with career gaps. Also employers will need to be more willing to do as they used to in the past - train people on the job.

Separately re people too unwell to work. Some will always be too unwell to work and need and deserve support. And re their "economic contribution", they keep large numbers of other people in work - including but not only health and social care (a very large employment sector).

But many others who are unable to work, would be well enough to work - if they weren't one of the millions waiting too long for NHS care. NHS delays (and doctor fobbing off, that causes misdiagnosis or late diagnosis), and sometimes as a consequence of the delays - obesity. This needs to be addressed.

I obviously cannot speak for all 54 countries but I can speak for the one where wealth and poverty live together and I can assure that the only way to bring about change in the way people treat their health is through education. Not wealth.

I can also assure you that my answer for children already caught in the obesity / poverty trap is not weight loss drugs. If anyone thinks that is the answer you are absolutely completely wrong and glossing over the issue with a temporary solution.

As a last say from me. What an absolute privileged notion that someone’s economic position can be solved by being administered a weight loss drug. I can almost guarantee that the majority of persons who wish to given the drug and who blame their ‘poorness’ on their weight are in denial about the actual cause of their obesity. It is an absolute shame that in the UK where access to information, education and healthcare is so readily available that people continue to make poor lifestyle choices and look to the ‘system’ to provide the solution for them.

I wish people would realize that they actually have some control over their lives and the outcomes by the choices they make everyday.

Sure there may be a handful of people this may help but the majority who claim to be helpless are just not being honest with themselves.

I’m too overweight to get a job but I’m so poor I can only eat junk food. What a load of privileged nonsense and hypocrisy.

I don't know if you're referring to my posts @DamnitImTired ?

Re obesity. Very often it's absolutely not a "lifestyle choice". Lifestyle maybe, but not a choice.

If the weight loss jabs help some people (depending on individual circumstances), then great.
But they shouldn't be the only treatment or help given.

That's because, as with any issue (not exclusive to obesity) there's a need for a holistic approach and a need to address the cause as well as the symptoms.

Re poverty and obesity interlinking.

A) Obviously poverty isn't the only cause of obesity. And not everyone in poverty will be overweight. However poverty is a major cause of obesity. And poverty is not a choice. Nobody chooses to be in poverty.

I posted upthread the reasons why poverty is a major cause of obesity. They include lack of or delayed access to timely and good health and social care, lack of access to affordable healthy food and/or cooking and kitchen storage facilities.

And interlinked with poverty - chronic stress. This can (as noted by medical research) cause weight gain, even without overeating. I provided a link upthread on this.

Of course chronic stress is not confined to people in poverty. Traumatic life events and difficult life circumstances can affect people of all economic backgrounds.

Returning to delayed or lack of access to timely and good healthcare.
Millions of people are on NHS waiting lists. Many will gain weight whilst waiting for diagnosis or appropriate treatment - due to pain and/or mobility issues caused by lack of diagnosis, misdiagnosis, or delayed treatment.

So the obvious way to address obesity is holistically. If appropriate depending on the individual's circumstances, it may be helpful to give weight loss drugs - to treat the symptoms.

However that needs to be done together with addressing the root causes - whether they're environmental/economic, trauma or chronic stress, or undiagnosed/misdiagnosed health conditions and/or delayed treatment for a health condition.

you actually think that your thinking is better than that of the government? I assure you, your thought process is way off

So people should stay fat to support big business?

To add. Re the lumping together of "worklessness" and obesity.

Firstly, many people who are overweight are working (although that doesn't necessarily mean they're not in poverty especially with increased cost of living).

Secondly, lots of people who aren't currently working (whether job seeking or unable to work) aren't overweight.

Thirdly, although the weight loss drugs may perhaps be helpful for some people, the issue of "worklessness" won't be addressed by weight loss drugs. Likewise NHS costs actually.

The way to address "worklessness" (and obesity) is:

a) Sort out the NHS and social services. Holistic care for physical and psychological health issues, and help for environmental and social issues.

Including prompt tests and an end to the fobbing off culture, that sees people end up more ill by the time they're finally diagnosed or helped - so then needing more or longer term care (terrible for the individual and costly for the economy).

Continuity of care is important, as is longer GP appointments - 5/10 minute appointments and often with a different doctor every time makes it easy to miss or delay symptoms.

b) Housing. Specifically more council housing. Bad or insecure housing harms health (as published in the British Medical Journal). Housing issues cost the economy billions.

c) Address poverty (which would go a long way towards addressing chronic stress and the ill health consequences of that. Again costing the economy billions. Address through a supportive benefits system, improved child maintenance system, improved social services, and job and training opportunities. And of course, more council housing.

d) Employers. Crack down on the widespread discrimination against older, disabled, and career gap candidates. Plus reintroduce training on the job.

So really it's two separate issues being wrongly conflated. Obesity isn't the cause of unemployment. The above issues are the cause. I suspect the confusion came about because unemployment can cause obesity (due to the poverty and chronic stress).

So to finish. Yes, treat the symptoms including obesity. But also address the causes. Both re obesity and separately re "worklessness".

OP why are you assuming that all overweight people are overweight because of greed?

What do you mean by greed though? In most obese people the hormones regulating appetite are not working correctly so they will feel hungrier, eat more and appear greedy. The weight loss drugs add back the glp1 to help with appetite.

I am rarely hungry anymore becuase over the past 2 years I have built my diet around the natural production of glp1. There are many ways of doing this. Eating high fibre veg at the start of a meal stimulates the production of glp-1 and eating whole foods which slow digestion (rather than upf 'pre chewed' foods) also helps. The production of glp1 is related to the health of the gut microbiome so anything that supports this will help (I.e diversity of plants, fermented foods, avoiding emulsifiers, preservatives etc).

Having changed to this diet I no longer calorie count and my body now regulates a lowish bmi without any deprivation or hunger. I appreciate though that some people may need to drugs as an initial push to turn things around.

One thing that's worth noting. Whether good idea or not, it's nothing new - appetite suppressant/weight loss drugs. Used to be pep pills aka bennies (amphetamines).

I don't think it will have anything other than a marginal effect. Improving the NHS and better employers will go much farther.

I mean isn't this the whole problem with a capitalist society? It's fundamentally reliant on people not only buying rubbish they don't need, but rubbish that is actually harmful to them. I mean we can't actually be arguing that it's better to keep people unhealthy and dying to prop up this economic system.