UK fertility rate drops by 18.8% in 12 years

[MidnightPatrol]

The UK has the fastest falling fertility rate in the G7.

2022 saw the lowest number of births for 20 years.

The current TFR is 1.49 births per woman.

What do you think the reason for this is, and what could be done to reverse the trend?

news.sky.com/story/amp/britains-fertility-rate-falling-faster-than-any-other-g7-country-with-austerity-thought-to-be-a-principal-factor-13232314

See above and also you can have a very good career and children. Women have been having careers for a long time and hobbies. My Mum had a career from the 70s she also had hobbies and won literary prizes with her 'hobbie'. None of this is new and as far as feminism goes, it seems blatantly obvious that we love in a man's world more than ever now!

Cost. We only had one child, primarily because of the cost of childcare, cost of having time off after giving birth, cost of providing a good life for our child eg clubs, holidays, days out etc. We couldn't afford to give any more children the life we think they deserve.

People who can afford to have kids are starting their families later, leaving only time to have one or two kids at most.

But many others can't afford it at all: my 30yo niece and her partner have put every penny they have into buying a one bed flat in London where they work. The mortgage is huge - they need two incomes coming in to pay it, but there is no prospect of being able to do so AND afford nursery fees on top. No family nearby to help with childcare so they're stuck.

“Overall I actually myself can't see a single advantage to having a child. I understand for some people it's instinctual but logically speaking it's a precarious decision to say the least.”

As a mum, and a human being… I just find this really sad. Children are so joyful and they are the future. No one should feel pressure to have children they don’t want, but coldly assessing their value in a cost-benefit analysis is fucking sad.

I can only think of one of a couple of jobs for which you need to be in London eg city banker.

They need to move.

If they wait a short while, hopefully they'll have some equity.

Well yes its expensive but some of the costs i listed are pretty ridicukous. Like why am i paying for bus when my dc is still 3mi from any school just because i didnt pick the 1 school im allowed to.

School dinners even with higher food costs shoukd not be costing parents what they are.
Potentially we dont need unifirm bur possibly it could actually be cheaper.
Bringing in free breakfast clubs but again will they be open early enough.
Any sort of activity with kids is very expensive now looking ar 50+ for a zoo trip etc
£18+ per child at a party.
Uk food prices have shot up (though its expensive in other countries too)

When i looked at childcare after having dc1 i honestly couldnt believe 10y ago it was like £50 a day. I would be then working for £1.10 an hour. And i had worked there over 10y.

Perhaps i would have nade different choices about getting back to work if there had been the free hours earlier than 3 at that point.

It may be rather taking the piss going on more than 3 mat leaves from 1 job. As peoole leave having kids later trying to squeeze in more than 2 in even. The one person with 6 kids can hardly have been at work but also if any of the kids are sickly (as both mone are) it a lot of time off work for that time too.

In the future it maybe that asd/adhd people may have fewer kids too. Certainly if i had a diagnosis i moght have reconsidered dc or having more than 1. Dc 1 was very difficult and i naively thought dc2 couldnt be as tricky...
Now dc1 is going to be diagnosed as already saying not going to have dc.

This is what I mean by hyper-rationalisation, we just didn't think like that, it was a completely different mindset but we didn't have computers in the palms of our hands telling us how to think and feel about every single aspect of our lives, removing the need to have any highs and lows and making everything a safe bet.

America?

They don't have ANY maternity cover
Their schools are more dangerous
They have worse employee rights

....

Smart phones didn’t tell me I don’t want children. I’ve never wanted them, and I’m not taking any risk of having them on the off chance I’ll find them “joyful”.

Why on earth do you care if other people don’t want them anyway? Fat chance of humans dying out, so what’s the problem?

OonaStubbs · Today 07:47
The vast majority of taxes are paid by the highest earners. If we kept the highest earners and reduced the number of people who are a net drain on the public purse throughout their lives, we would all be a lot better off.

You've over simplified. If you do low-status, essential work on wages to low to live on, you don't pay much tax, and you may even need government money to survive, but your work has value to society and to the economy.

If you agree that the human population cannot increase infinitely, but think it needs to increase in the short term to cover the pensions of the existing aging population, you're just kicking the can down the road for future generations to deal with.

@HazelPlayer That’s not true, many industries are primarily in London or another major city. Certainly once you get to a high enough level there just aren’t the same opportunities outside London or similar. It isn’t just finance, it’s true of advertising/marketing, politics and policymaking, architecture, design, journalism, and most major commercial brands whose corporate HQs are in London.

I ended up moving abroad for opportunities. I tried recruiters in my hometown (a biggish city, about 500,000) and close by when I came back from another stint abroad a few years ago and was told that senior enough positions just don’t exist outside London. My DC fortunately has citizenship of three countries, there are so few opportunities in the UK.

I agree. I have 3 (a singleton and twins)... we had to buy a particular type of (expensive) car to fit the car seats and buggy in... and we are limited when we book holiday accommodation.

Basically rent a holiday home or camp... hotels are normally v expensive as we would need 2 adjoining rooms.

All clubs and activities are expensive as the twins normally want to do the same things together... so cost of activity x2 plus uniform x2 .

It’s nothing to do with computers or smart phones. I’ve just always known I didn’t want kids since I was one myself. It’s just an instinctive, deep, visceral feeling, same as the people who want kids, I assume. I’ve made plenty of impulsive decisions in my life without analysing the cost and benefits or looking up info on the internet. I don’t sit down and do a pros and cons list for everything I do. But if I did one about having kids, the cons would far outweigh the pros for me. It would make my life much worse.

There is nothing wrong with being rational and looking at things pragmatically.

The idea of having children shouldn't be one of whimsy and 'it will all work out'. People are told to use more strict considerations before buying a cat than they are when they announce they wants child.

If I bought a horse I could barely afford because I had dreams of riding bare back across a mountain range, but then started to complain when the reality was shovelling shit out of stables in the rain and sleet every day of the year while also trying to fit in with the stable yard clique was hard and it was costing too much to get the best possible schooling and care for my horse, people would righly tell me I should have thought about all that before I bought the animal.

Raising kids isn't all Kodak moments and while some people may be really into it and make it their entire personality, some people just aren't interested in it. It has nothing to do with computers. Ive been around children and I've seen what they require. I do not wish to provide that, and I value other things.

There's never been more young people out of work. So many struggling with depression and anxiety, SEN etc. a lot more money must go towards supporting the young these days than in the past.

The dymamics of young adulthood and relationships are changing.

50% of women are now hitting 30 without kids and so they've got a limited window left. It's really hard as you have to get all your ducks in a row in such a short time frame - partner, career, secure housing all within about 15 years.

Many of the youngsters where I work still aren't settled down into their mid 30s and many are actually on the housing ladder so it's not just about affordability and money.

Exorbitant housing costs have fucked the country. People now delay having children until they are on the housing ladder, average is now early 30’s before you can save a deposit. By which time women’s fertility starts declining. Meanwhile at the other end their parents and grandparents are having to sell their homes to pay for care, which means that their children/won’t inherit money to help with their deposit. Increasing rates of dementia means this is becoming more likely, especially as it affects families. So in 20 years when my generation starts retiring not only will there be fewer carers, there will be fewer tax payers to fund pensions. So a continued increase in pension age will rise. Housing will likely end up in the control of large corporate landlords. They could have sorted this out years ago by building more council housing but they haven’t and never will.

You seem to be saying it'd be a good thing for birth rates to be higher? But why? Are you not aware that children born now are facing an extremely bleak future due to the incoming devastation of climate change? Are you not aware that the plague of humans, the overpopulation by us, the consumerism, the nappy mountains and colossal mountains of plastic, the poisoning of rivers and seas, are destroying the environment and pushing other species to extinction?

Mums get a shitty deal and more and more women are voting with their feet, either by leaving motherhood later and only having one or at most two children or by opting out altogether.

This pattern is not unique to the UK though - allow women to control their own fertility and give them other options and as a general rule they want less children, not more.

Do men want more children? If men don't, and women don't, where is the problem?

Expense. For people who don't want to have children at all then no amount of money will persuade them to have one but there are many families who would have 2, 3 or even 4 if they could afford to do so but need to stick at a lower number. Women often need to go back to work full time asap.

Cost of housing, huge difference in cost between a 2 and a 3 bedroom house, and again between a 3 and a 4 bedroom. People having to work more hours to afford a much smaller property than their parents did and in some cases commute from further away. Spending 12 hours out of the house every day will naturally lead to singletons not being as available for dates and meeting people, and couples have less time at home together to make babies.

Many useless men who expect their wives to earn 50% of the income whilst doing 100% of the child rearing. Wives much less likely to want sex whilst having to look after a manchild much less have another actual child.

Families living further apart, people not having a "village", don't know their community or neighbours, no local support with children they have means less likely to have more.

Labour and birth is hell on earth, plenty of women traumatised by births due to lack of staff and awful postnatal care, that they don't want to repeat the experience. Birth injuries, birth trauma. In some severe cases women unable to have more children.

Mental health issues among parents and woeful mental health care making it unwise for them to have more children.

The rise of dating apps and instant gratification of getting several matches gives people of both sexes the illusion of choice. Don't like the way match number 1 dresses, never mind onto the next one and the next and the next. Eventually just leads to people being single for a long time.

Wanted two kids. Have one for health reasons, but I'm happy as a little family of 3. DD gets a lot of parental attention and support, I make sure she has lots of time with kids during the school holidays etc. A couple of years ago I was very sad that she likely won't have a sibling, but I've accepted it and she seems happy too.

I can't afford my (reasonably modest) lifestyle with a second. I'd have to move house, which I don't want to do and can't afford.