UK fertility rate drops by 18.8% in 12 years

[MidnightPatrol]

The UK has the fastest falling fertility rate in the G7.

2022 saw the lowest number of births for 20 years.

The current TFR is 1.49 births per woman.

What do you think the reason for this is, and what could be done to reverse the trend?

news.sky.com/story/amp/britains-fertility-rate-falling-faster-than-any-other-g7-country-with-austerity-thought-to-be-a-principal-factor-13232314

I think the constant messaging about not having children young, not having children before you can 'afford' them (that time will never come, it's always a financial shock) has had the intended effect- people are putting off having children or not having them at all.

Also, the imo weird way couples now act like housemates over money- DH and I always shared finances, it was always 'our' money, but you see threads all the time where a woman is using 'her' money for all child related expenses- it's bonkers imo.

Humans are far more likely to disappear due to overpopulation—overcrowding, resource scarcity and climate change will cause ecological collapse, famine, disease and war. A better future would necessarily be one with fewer people.

Humans are the worst, but don't worry, we're in no danger of dying out within your lifetime.

There is nothing to suggest previous birth rates were the natural order though. Access to birth control, access to abortions, social stigma around remaining childless or having an only child all play into the fertility rate. Why is it okay when external factors inflate the rate but less okay when it reduces the rate?

How do you know what most people have? I have loads of happily child free friends. The ones who do have kids are ambivalent on the whole. They wouldn't wish the kids away but...

Humans will go extinct eventually, @Imperfectionist

Yep. Typing from the Middle East it’s all close to home. I just like humans, I get a lot of joy from thinking about and engaging with kids, youth, the next and future generations. And hope. We need hope. Anyways interesting discussion. Sorry if my idea of targeting young men offended anyone. I was always taught that there’s no such thing as a bad idea. 🤷🏻‍♀️

As Hitler said to Mao

Nudge theory doesn't really work the way it was originally advertised.

e.g: They used "nudge" theory to encourage people to eat more vegetables - put the vegetables/fruit in a prominent place in the canteen that children have to walk past/see and more children put vegetables on their plates. Success! Except that more vegetables got thrown away - children were choosing to put vegetables on their plates but they weren't actually eating it.
They tried to use nudge theory right at the start of the Covid pandemic. Rather than lockdown (and have to pay restaurants/businesses etc) the government was just going to try to persuade people in both obvious and very subtle ways that going out etc was a bad idea. People became very judgemental of other people's choices "I went to Luigi's last evening and it was absolutely rammed. Its as if no-one around here cares about Covid..." but didn't change their own behaviour much at all. See also the amount of people who have absorbed the message that large cars are bad for the environment but have a new 4-wheel drive because.....

If people (men) secretly want to settle down and have families, then it might give them more of an excuse/reason to do it. But if they don't, they won't change their lifestyle but will probably harbour a nagging feeling that they should be living life differently, or be very critical of the rest of society for not being more family orientated.

Oh yes - how nudge theory does work is by getting people to be more supportive of controlling other people's behaviour in favour of the thing. So you could nudge people constantly about eating less sugar - they wouldn't cut down sugar on their own accord but might then support a law that would force people (including themselves) to eat less sugar. I am not sure that is always a good thing.

Childcare costs, not to mention the general cost of living

Absolutely this. This is a GOOD thing: we can encourage net migration from areas where the birth rate is high or where living standards are unmanagable.

The only reason people think this is a BAD thing is due to underlying racism: assuming that 'British' babies are superior.

It’s not even underlying in some cases. My mother, who has GB News on permanently, said to me last year that I should procreate because we need more white people, overlooking two things:

1. I don’t want children
2. My husband is mixed race

This is why we need to progress with the assisted dying discussion in society, I think. If I reach my 80s or 90s and I can't handle the basics of life, I think I will be ready to go and I need that option if there aren't going to be enough carers or the like to go around.

The trouble is most people lack the foresight to imagine what that's like. I assume I'll have to do it myself when the time comes.

@DonnaBanana @OptimismvsRealism Yes, I’ve also considered that euthanasia might be an option if life gets too difficult. I definitely agree with it if someone has a terminal illness and wishes to take that option.

Fewer humans is definitely a good thing. As for why, it's becoming more acceptable to be childfree these days. Also, it seems like there is a higher incidence of neurodiversity today so having a high needs child might make someone think they don't have the energy for another. People are free to be gay now when previously they may have entered into a marriage of convenience and produced offspring. This being MN, it's only right I blame the increase in trans people too,

Housing costs and establishing careers. Cost of childcare is prohibitive along with housing costs so a lot of people postpone trying to start or extend families.

I know a few people who ended up starting to try to conceive in mid to late 30s who ended up with the expense and stress of infertility treatment. Two ended up with single babies (& decided not to go through further cycles due to their age by time they had their first), one ended up with twins and one couple sadly stopped trying after numerous costly, unsuccessful rounds of IVF.

I haven’t RTFT and Im sure this point has been made but it’s no coincidence that the last 12 years covers the whole of the Tory austerity period.

The U.K. is increasingly expensive, and families suffer the most with the high cost of childcare and housing. My quality of life is significantly worse than my parents’ even though they were working class and I have a middle class profession. I dread to think what the future is like for my children.

Aside from the practicalities like housing, childcare costs and the inflated cost of living, I would add:

• capitalism rebranding having children as a 'lifestyle choice' akin to what car you get or buying a pet

• the massive devaluation of motherhood meaning less social grace, support and respect for this tough role.

• the breakdown in the 'village' and the failure of the state to step in and fill this hole.

• the impact of porn and the patriarchy in the cultural zeitgeist.

The motherhood penalty is just too high.

@ChillysWaterBottle

• the massive devaluation of motherhood meaning less social grace, support and respect for this tough role.

I'm not sure about this—has motherhood ever been truly valued or respected? In societies where women are supposedly revered as mothers, the reality is that they're basically brood mares and indentured domestic servants, waiting hand and foot on children and adult men. Once a year on her birthday or whatever, they keep her sweet by making out she's the centre of the universe, but give her no true respect as an individual in her own right.

It's no wonder, given the choice, that many women reject this bullshit.

"This is why we need to progress with the assisted dying discussion in society, I think. If I reach my 80s or 90s and I can't handle the basics of life, I think I will be ready to go and I need that option if there aren't going to be enough carers or the like to go around."

And THIS is precisely why it would not be safe to legalise assisted suicide, if people are already touting it as a solution to staffing shortages! Talk about a slippery slope

There are plenty of cultures where mothers are valued a lot more highly than childless women. In many places not having a child (because of infertility issues, partner issues, not being married) is so so highly stigmatised that the decision not to have children would basically lead to ostracisation or life on the margins. So women will put up with pretty much any bad behaviour from men because the alternative is so much worse. I think lurking in the background of these discussions is the idea that if we could stigmatise women not having children to that extent it would solve the problem. (And I say that "as a mother").

Capitalism is bad for many reasons but having children is a lifestyle choice. Yes, there should be societal structures to support it (free childcare, more social and affordable housing and the normalisation/expectation of men being equal caregivers would be a start) but the fact that we’ve got to a point culturally where it is seen as a choice can only be a good thing. What’s the alternative - people shamed into having kids they don’t really want and creating miserable children? Women childless not through choice also shamed and demeaned? The further we move away from the idea that there’s only one “proper” way to do life, the better.

Yes there are plenty of cultures and dare I say religions where women simply have no place outside of traditional family structures. Is that what we really want?

Why do you want to sit around in your own poo waiting for the one care worker in your area to get to your house to change you? Fuck that - off to the next adventure please. Pro-lifers get my goat.