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Cheshire Police are an incompetent bunch of useless bastards

363 replies

GossIsAGit · 12/10/2024 11:39

After Sally Clark

They should have remembered that If a doctor of medicine tells you that a coincidence is so unlikely it must mean a woman has been killing babies then maybe you should consult a statistician and actually listen.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/10/lucy-letby-police-cps-handling-case-raises-new-concerns-about-convictions?CMP=ShareiOSAppOther

Lucy Letby: police and CPS handling of case raises new concerns about convictions

Exclusive: Letby’s barrister says application challenging verdicts is being prepared using expert medical evidence

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/10/lucy-letby-police-cps-handling-case-raises-new-concerns-about-convictions?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/10/2024 09:44

Defence witnesses for this sort of case are indeed rare as hens teeth. And were pretty thin on the ground 30 years ago when I was left to try and build my own "defence" in yes, the family courts, but which is no less a traumatic experience when you're facing the permanent loss of your child to adoption.

One witness I found was close to be struck off for allegedly working outside the scope of his expertise because he had identified alternative explanations for the discovery of metaphyseal fractures in large numbers, in often premature babies and multiple births. At that time the medical dogma in place for decades insisted that the only explanation for these occult fractures was violent and deliberate abuse - and if there were no bruises it must be careful torture. Things have thankfully moved on a bit by now.

My solicitor wouldn't call on that witness because the court would not accept his testimony. The idea was that going to this "charlatan" would emphasise my desperation to "get off" and the courts would hold it against me. The expert in question was a highly respected biochemist heading up the Brittle Bone Society in Scotland and had decades of work examining collagen disorders under his belt. When he successfully challenged too many cases in family court, prosecution experts got him struck off as it was challenging and undermining the dogma they followed.

I'm not trying to make this all about me, I'm using this as an example of when medical evidence meets the legal system. It can be complex. I've said on other threads that the adversarial system is not about the "truth" it's about winning, and that came straight from my solicitors mouth in the first meeting I had with him, when I was 6 weeks post partum, had just been accused of the worst thing imaginable and was told from the get go that if I couldn't come up with an explanation for occult, mostly symptomless fractures, then adoption was the only outcome. He went on to be a respected circuit judge in the family courts, so he knew exactly how it all worked.

I didn't follow the Lucy Letby trial at the time. I'm painfully aware of my own natural bias and I tried to believe that after Sally Clarke, Angela Cannings etc these sorts of cases would only make it to court on the back of virtually incontrovertible evidence. Once the trial was over, and I saw the other experts coming out saying essentially WTF about some of the medical evidence, despite my better judgement I had to look closer. It was some of the language used against her that really struck me, the phrases used by the experts - forcce of a car crash is one that gets trotted out because it's dramatic, sounds terrible and will push the buttons of a jury. It's clear that in 30 years, very little has changed with regard to medical evidence in complex court cases.

I've looked at all the alleged mechanisms of death as forensically as I can as a lay person with only Google to hand. They don't add up. The circumstantial evidence and character assassination has been allowed to obfuscate the forensics and that is wrong. Our justice system should be better than that. No system can be perfect but how many innocent people or miscarriages of justice can be comfortably written off as acceptable collateral damage? Especially when the reason it happens can include perjury, group think, institutional gas-lighting and arse covering, and when challenging it is regarded as nutty conspiracy theorising.

I have actually been there - not as far as being prosecuted, although a SW tried her damndest even after the police didn't want to pursue my case, but in my mind, the stakes were higher - permanently losing my child.

I'm fully expecting to be scoffed at and told I'm making this up because I, like Lucy Letby, am an attention-seeking narcissist intent on harming babies - after all, lots of important educated people have said so. Based simply on medical evidence. And the fact that I disagreed with it.

Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.....

(Yes, I'm still bitter).

Oftenaddled · 16/10/2024 09:44

WhosPink · 16/10/2024 09:41

None of which points to a conspiracy. Just incompetence (on the part of the defence mostly). When a doctor says “The likelihood of this occurring by chance alone is very low.” you ask them for the calculated probability, the confidence intervals, and them to show their workings. Basic A-level stats and probability. You don't just accept them at their word.

Yes, and you don't accept an answer about pots falling out of helicopters and concussing camels in the desert or whatever that was about.

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 09:56

A good definition of a conspiracy theory is belief without critical thinking. It really doesn’t apply to what myriad experts are saying about this case.

OP posts:
Grandmasswagbag · 16/10/2024 10:00

MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/10/2024 09:44

Defence witnesses for this sort of case are indeed rare as hens teeth. And were pretty thin on the ground 30 years ago when I was left to try and build my own "defence" in yes, the family courts, but which is no less a traumatic experience when you're facing the permanent loss of your child to adoption.

One witness I found was close to be struck off for allegedly working outside the scope of his expertise because he had identified alternative explanations for the discovery of metaphyseal fractures in large numbers, in often premature babies and multiple births. At that time the medical dogma in place for decades insisted that the only explanation for these occult fractures was violent and deliberate abuse - and if there were no bruises it must be careful torture. Things have thankfully moved on a bit by now.

My solicitor wouldn't call on that witness because the court would not accept his testimony. The idea was that going to this "charlatan" would emphasise my desperation to "get off" and the courts would hold it against me. The expert in question was a highly respected biochemist heading up the Brittle Bone Society in Scotland and had decades of work examining collagen disorders under his belt. When he successfully challenged too many cases in family court, prosecution experts got him struck off as it was challenging and undermining the dogma they followed.

I'm not trying to make this all about me, I'm using this as an example of when medical evidence meets the legal system. It can be complex. I've said on other threads that the adversarial system is not about the "truth" it's about winning, and that came straight from my solicitors mouth in the first meeting I had with him, when I was 6 weeks post partum, had just been accused of the worst thing imaginable and was told from the get go that if I couldn't come up with an explanation for occult, mostly symptomless fractures, then adoption was the only outcome. He went on to be a respected circuit judge in the family courts, so he knew exactly how it all worked.

I didn't follow the Lucy Letby trial at the time. I'm painfully aware of my own natural bias and I tried to believe that after Sally Clarke, Angela Cannings etc these sorts of cases would only make it to court on the back of virtually incontrovertible evidence. Once the trial was over, and I saw the other experts coming out saying essentially WTF about some of the medical evidence, despite my better judgement I had to look closer. It was some of the language used against her that really struck me, the phrases used by the experts - forcce of a car crash is one that gets trotted out because it's dramatic, sounds terrible and will push the buttons of a jury. It's clear that in 30 years, very little has changed with regard to medical evidence in complex court cases.

I've looked at all the alleged mechanisms of death as forensically as I can as a lay person with only Google to hand. They don't add up. The circumstantial evidence and character assassination has been allowed to obfuscate the forensics and that is wrong. Our justice system should be better than that. No system can be perfect but how many innocent people or miscarriages of justice can be comfortably written off as acceptable collateral damage? Especially when the reason it happens can include perjury, group think, institutional gas-lighting and arse covering, and when challenging it is regarded as nutty conspiracy theorising.

I have actually been there - not as far as being prosecuted, although a SW tried her damndest even after the police didn't want to pursue my case, but in my mind, the stakes were higher - permanently losing my child.

I'm fully expecting to be scoffed at and told I'm making this up because I, like Lucy Letby, am an attention-seeking narcissist intent on harming babies - after all, lots of important educated people have said so. Based simply on medical evidence. And the fact that I disagreed with it.

Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.....

(Yes, I'm still bitter).

I'm so sorry that happened to you and thankyou for this insight. I think it's more common than people realise. Years ago, My DM had a friend who was a Dr herself who was accused of harming her newborn. Turned out to be a birth injury. I just can't imagine being separated from your baby knowing you are the one thing they need desperately but the rest of the world believing you're a danger to them. Absolutely terrifying and could happen to anyone.

Grandmasswagbag · 16/10/2024 10:08

Oftenaddled · 16/10/2024 08:59

I haven't come across anyone who believes Letby's case was a conspiracy against her - just group think, flawed understanding of statistics, and an irresponsible lead witness for the prosecution.

I think the justice system usually gets things right. I know the justice system occasionally gets things wrong. It seems sensible to listen to what relevant experts are saying about this one. That's all - no big drama.

This exactly. In this case I don't believe there was any conspiracy. Just incompetence. Separately to incompetence, I can assure you that there has been, and probably currently are, cases where deep corruption goes right the way through police and CPS.

BananaSpanner · 16/10/2024 10:10

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 09:56

A good definition of a conspiracy theory is belief without critical thinking. It really doesn’t apply to what myriad experts are saying about this case.

There may be questions about the validity of the evidence and how it was presented but your absolute belief that she is innocent is bizarre.

Also, to go the title of this thread, Cheshire Police have investigated thoroughly and presented a case to the CPS, they will have had to disclose to the defence anything that undermined the prosecution or assisted the defence. From there on in, the trial process takes over. I’m not sure what the police have done wrong, they are not medical experts so will have to be led by what they are told by medical experts (that are willing to put pen to paper, not just sit back and go on podcasts after the event).

Grandmasswagbag · 16/10/2024 10:13

PinkyFlamingo · 16/10/2024 06:24

Some people just can't accept a woman can harm babies. Would love to know if there was this level of disturbance about the verdict if Letby had been a man, I suspect not

I don't believe a man would have been convicted or even brought to trial based on the 'evidence'. This case is Amanda Knox all over again isn't it. Wasn't acting like we think she should= guilty. The whole reason it was bought to the police in the first place was 'feelings' about her, absolutely no evidence. I think if they had been male the idea probably wouldn't have even made it beyond her colleagues heads.

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 10:33

BananaSpanner · 16/10/2024 10:10

There may be questions about the validity of the evidence and how it was presented but your absolute belief that she is innocent is bizarre.

Also, to go the title of this thread, Cheshire Police have investigated thoroughly and presented a case to the CPS, they will have had to disclose to the defence anything that undermined the prosecution or assisted the defence. From there on in, the trial process takes over. I’m not sure what the police have done wrong, they are not medical experts so will have to be led by what they are told by medical experts (that are willing to put pen to paper, not just sit back and go on podcasts after the event).

The police allowed themselves to be led by medical doctors presenting statistical evidence. They employed a dodgy expert who isn’t a neonatologist. Read the article.

I believe that Lucy Letby is innocent of murder and attempted murder in the same way that I believe my husband is innocent of murder and attempted murder. There’s no good reason to think otherwise.
As a matter of tactics, some experts are using the line that they don’t know if she’s innocent but the evidence isn’t there.
I have no reason to go down that route.

OP posts:
MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/10/2024 10:39

The crux of the matter is that if the mechanisms of death are implausible, dubious and have no precedent, then it utterly undermines the safety of the prosecution. As someone else said the fact that she was "in the room" isn't enough for a prosecution. By that score, anyone could be prosecuted at any time for being in the proximity of any unexplained death.

But post mortems did identify causes of death on these babies, in 6 out of 7 I believe. Is it believable that the pathologists involved were so incompetent every one was wrong? Because they weren't looking for murder? Which is the argument I've heard several times.

You can't convict people on the basis of "well, we're not sure what you've done but you must have done something" (although you can permanently remove children because the bar in family court is lower and done on the balance of probabilities - which us essentially based on what expert witnesses "think" based on the information given to them).

The second trial did involve the judge telling the jury that they didn't need to be certain what she'd done, because she'd been convicted of other murders. That's not justice.

You've got the prosecution witnesses saying "you can kill a baby by injecting air into an NG tube". You've got a multitude of other essentially impartial professionals coming out and saying "eh?" Who wouldn't have been able to challenge that during the trial for legal reasons, but who don't want to see something patently untrue fall into common use. That's just for starters.

Until these technicalities are addressed, no amount of "Ooh I knew she was a wrong un due to her cold dead eyes and the way she lurked around the wards like the spectre of death" can justify her conviction on the evidence presented. It's the stuff of Penny Dreadfuls, frankly.

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 10:44

Also, @MistressoftheDarkSide the judge said in the first trial that if the jury were sure of deliberate harm on one count that might legitimately influence their thinking on how likely it might be on the other charges.

OP posts:
BananaSpanner · 16/10/2024 10:48

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 10:33

The police allowed themselves to be led by medical doctors presenting statistical evidence. They employed a dodgy expert who isn’t a neonatologist. Read the article.

I believe that Lucy Letby is innocent of murder and attempted murder in the same way that I believe my husband is innocent of murder and attempted murder. There’s no good reason to think otherwise.
As a matter of tactics, some experts are using the line that they don’t know if she’s innocent but the evidence isn’t there.
I have no reason to go down that route.

If your husband has been tried and convicted of multiple murders then that is a useful analogy and would explain your motivation. If not, it is a ridiculous comparison.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/10/2024 10:49

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 10:44

Also, @MistressoftheDarkSide the judge said in the first trial that if the jury were sure of deliberate harm on one count that might legitimately influence their thinking on how likely it might be on the other charges.

Indeed. Which, when you've got three or four alleged "methods" is extremely dangerous.

BananaSpanner · 16/10/2024 10:58

OP, I have no problem with people raising concerns about this trial and discussing a way forward. I’m not that bothered about the criticism of the police but I do find it weird that you are so convinced of her innocence when truth be told, you have no idea.

You are no better than the people you are criticising, you have your stand point and will champion all the points that support it and ignore all of those that don’t. You either have skin in this game or it’s a bit of a weird hobby.

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 11:09

BananaSpanner · 16/10/2024 10:58

OP, I have no problem with people raising concerns about this trial and discussing a way forward. I’m not that bothered about the criticism of the police but I do find it weird that you are so convinced of her innocence when truth be told, you have no idea.

You are no better than the people you are criticising, you have your stand point and will champion all the points that support it and ignore all of those that don’t. You either have skin in this game or it’s a bit of a weird hobby.

We residents of England and Wales all have skin in the game. We’re talking about British justice.
Actually, on the basis, that we are all God’s children (literally or metaphorically) the whole world has skin in the game.
There’s no reason to think she’s guilty.
Lucy Letby is innocent.

OP posts:
BananaSpanner · 16/10/2024 11:14

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 11:09

We residents of England and Wales all have skin in the game. We’re talking about British justice.
Actually, on the basis, that we are all God’s children (literally or metaphorically) the whole world has skin in the game.
There’s no reason to think she’s guilty.
Lucy Letby is innocent.

😂

ThatsNotMyTeen · 16/10/2024 11:16

There’s no reason to think she’s guilty

other than her convictions

Lucy Letby is innocent

I don’t think she is, but she can avail herself of the same judicial mechanisms of everyone else if she wants

WhatsInTheRug · 16/10/2024 11:18

@GossIsAGit

You aren't really coming across very well now. Sounding a bit deluded

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 11:22

@BananaSpanner
@ThatsNotMyTeen
@WhatsInTheRug
Are you all still wearing the tee shirt? The one that says ‘the dingo is innocent’?

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 16/10/2024 11:30

MistressoftheDarkSide · 16/10/2024 10:49

Indeed. Which, when you've got three or four alleged "methods" is extremely dangerous.

The same judge instructed the jury that they did not need to be certain of the murder method.

So, if you believe Letby harmed one child - let's say by overfeeding which could easily be accidental in the qualities claimed, and wasn't proved ...

then you may assume without further evidence (all of which hinges on a specific method in trial and conviction) that she harmed or murdered any infant involved in the trial.

This is far far too low a standard for a safe conviction

PaterPower · 16/10/2024 11:34

There were multiple other deaths of infants on that unit - including deaths that presented in the same ways that the ones Letby has been convicted of killing did.

But THEIR deaths weren’t added to her charges because, no doubt to the prosecution’s chagrin, Letby WASN’T on shift when they died (and let’s not dive into the keycard swipes which they used as evidence and which turned out to be wrong for some dates).

What’s the explanation for all the other deaths on that unit which couldn’t be pinned on the scapegoat for poor performance Letby?

NotOneOfTheInCrowd · 16/10/2024 11:43

Lucy Letby is innocent. Lucy Letby is guilty.

There, fixed that for you.

I assume that you know this woman in some way, because frankly your obsession with trying to prove this murderer to be innocent really isn’t healthy.

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 11:50

NotOneOfTheInCrowd · 16/10/2024 11:43

Lucy Letby is innocent. Lucy Letby is guilty.

There, fixed that for you.

I assume that you know this woman in some way, because frankly your obsession with trying to prove this murderer to be innocent really isn’t healthy.

There’s no credible evidence that she’s guilty. She wasn’t even alone in some cases and very probably not in the room in others.
The evidence that she murdered baby C was from the day before she came on shift.
Lucy Letby is innocent.

OP posts:
WhatsInTheRug · 16/10/2024 11:54

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 11:22

@BananaSpanner
@ThatsNotMyTeen
@WhatsInTheRug
Are you all still wearing the tee shirt? The one that says ‘the dingo is innocent’?

Are you ok....maybe take a break?

You clearly have a crush on LL of some sort

Gently.....No not wearing a t shirt ..

GossIsAGit · 16/10/2024 12:00

WhatsInTheRug · 16/10/2024 11:54

Are you ok....maybe take a break?

You clearly have a crush on LL of some sort

Gently.....No not wearing a t shirt ..

But you must still think it was Lindy Chamberlain. She was convicted and her appeals rejected.

OP posts:
WhatsInTheRug · 16/10/2024 12:03

Must I?? Take a break....