To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

Self defence.

Hamas and Hamas alone are responsible for Gaza’s civilians deaths. For starters, they would do well to stop attacking Israel from Gaza and then using civilians as human shields when a counter attack comes.

Yet Hamas openly brag about using human shields and this tactics working, only showing how little regard they have for the lives of their own people.

Gaza is a terrorist stronghold an hour away from Tel Aviv. Let it sink in. An hour away.

Gaza is a base from which Hamas have been fighting their dirty war with the truly genocidal aim to completely destroy Israel and the Jewish people living there. As they themselves proudly admit.

The last elections in Gaza were held in 2006. Hamas critics disappear and Hamas has stolen most of international aid to build their war machine. Israel supplies drinking water to Gaza because Hamas don’t seem to care. Perhaps the marches should have been calling for Hamas to give the people of Gaza a general election so that they could choose if they still want to be ruled by terrorists?

Israel has every right to defend itself against a genocidal attempt to eradicate it and its people.

So just to be clear, you are saying that under modern IHL, the bombings of London and Dresden would not be considered war crimes?
Have you read the Geneva Conventions?

War crimes were not conducted at Nuremburg btw

It’s a genocide, what else is she supposed to call it.

Would you prefer ‘the state-directed killing of 50,000+ innocent Palestinian civilians’?

And Israel has been bombing Palestine for DECADES now...

Why? I never understand this argument. I remove racists and misogynists (for example) from my circle of acquaintances and have never once thought my life was poorer for it. Life’s too short to have close friendships with people I think are idiots.

So just to be clear, you agree that collective punishment of a civilian population is acceptable when a group claiming to represent them commits atrocities?

There are plenty of proud Jewish people horrified at Israel's actions and genocide in Gaza. Are they also antisemitic or is that label reserved for non Jews only?

I mean, it is a genocide OP. I say that as someone generally pro-israel who grew up with a lot of Jewish friends.

But is it tactical and for a reason? Yes. Welcome to war and the fight for what is likely a landgrab (although many will deny it) for the Ben Gurion canal.

Was it all planned to happen as it did? Doubt it. They saw an opportunity after Israel was attacked and went 'fuck it', now or never.

Over 40k dead civilians is “self-defence”? And when Gazans strike back is that “self defence” too or does that become terrorism?

It’s not like this conflict started in October 2023.

Nor targeted on one town or key defences. These are targeted on dense populations of civilians, with nowhere to go. The warnings to leave are spurious when they’ve left them nowhere to go and I hope are dismissed as such when the war crimes are declared. Hamas and hezbollah are terrorists, October 7 was a heinous act, but each of those 340 has been avenged in rivers of blood, with 40,000 dead and most of those women and children. This is genocide. If it’s not the word has no meaning anymore.

Would you prefer ‘the state-directed killing of 50,000+ innocent Palestinian civilians’?

I like this but I think those who object to “genocide” will definitely object to this too!

there is no intent to eliminate the Palestinian population, only the eliminate the terrorists who run Gaza

Well they are doing a very good job of eliminating the Palestinian population - maybe an unintended consequence?? More women and children have been killed in Gaza by the Israeli military over the past year than the equivalent period of any other conflict over the past two decades. I think of the line in Children of the New Forest when the roundhead captain justifies searching for the children by saying if you find a rat's nest you don't just kill the adults, you kill the babies too.

What happened on Oct 7th was horrendous. The hostages need to go home. There is absolutely a rise in anti-semitism because of this conflict. And Gaza and its women and children are being murdered and traumatized. I blame Netanyahu along with the Hamas leaders.

Let's be serious. No political movement has blanket support. Hamas is not supported by all Palestinian civilians. Data collection by the PSR is worth reading if anyone is looking for some stats.

It's worth mentioning that the Palestinian people - as in so many other places - do not have a truly free press/media (despite officially having precisely that). For example, many Palestinians have never seen footage of the atrocities of 7/10.

So no one can criticize Israel or its govt by your logic, as it's antisemitic to do so? Is that really what you're saying?

It's awful that there is a (small) number of people in the UK who are attacking Jewish people and businesses.

By the same token did you know there has been a record number of anti Muslim hate crimes in the past year in the UK?

Maybe war just stirs up hatred full stop - but you only want to see one side.

And I believe the reason why people have protested against Israel war and called for a ceasefire when they haven't so much in other countries - well firstly it's the many, many thousands of children killed seemingly indiscriminately, with some eye witnesses claiming children were even being targeted. Secondly, unlike Russia, Iran and Syria there is a perception that Israel is "on our side". And certainly supported by our most important ally, the USA. It feels to people like our govt could actually have some influence here unlike in other conflicts.

Also the UN has claimed Israel have committed war crimes of course.

To clarify: PSR (Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research)

It's quite possible to loathe Netanhayu 's government policy, and Hamas at the same time.

But in terms of civilians, the Palestinians have it far worse at the moment.

This does not make me anti semitic, just anti the current government, pro a two state solution, and sad for all the deaths. But they are in greater numbers, and with worse living conditions on one side. And it would be a lie to say otherwise.

I just wish it would all stop. But it never will.

Wow! I’m impressed by Israel!

All that bombing and they managed to not hit a single member of Hamas! Only innocent civilians!

I guess it comes down to, is this an issue you can agree to disagree on and leave alone? If so, get on with the friendship. If not, I suppose it's over.

No. It started in 1948 as soon as Israel was founded, when the Jewish people returning to shield there after a genocide in Europe were attacked by the Arab Legion.

Perhaps look up Amin Al Husseini and what he did to the Jewish people living in Jerusalem in the 1920s and who he sought to cooperate with during the WW2.

Self-defence my arse. Self-defence needs to be proportionate. I can't think anyone could in good faith claim the alleged killing of 40,000+ people, many of them civilians, is a proportionate response to an attack that killed 1200.

Anyone who uses the word "Human Shields" has already dehumanized a group of people. Over 40, 000 killed mostly women and children let alone the many who are maimed and families lost! It's barbaric and shameful that whole communities have been shattered and the infrastructure totally destroyed. Countries who support this one sided war should are complicit in this genocide. Also this war did not start on the 7th Oct but has led to the biggest genocide in modern history.

Most people would agree that was is happening in Palestine is a genocide. You can see the land being eradicated. When would you classify it as a genocide, when the numbers killed hits zero because nobody is left???

War? Started by Hamas this time last year.

@murasaki

But in terms of civilians, the Palestinians have it far worse at the moment.

This is true. Thanks to Hamas.

Perhaps Israeli people have learnt to take calls for their eradication seriously, especially after they ‘had it worse’ than anyone else ever in the 1930s and 1940s.

It is absolutely genocide, and it was interesting that South Africa were one of the first countries to call it given their history. They did the right thing