To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

If you work in a university you ought to be able to cope with people having different opinions to you.

I dont disagree that its a genocide but i understand why Israel are doing it. I dont think there is an easy answer to the situation.

It has everything to do with it. If you don’t understand the nature of the conflict why are you arguing for either participant ?

In a round about way yes. This is the answer to the question I asked you upthread, which you answered with some fluffy shite about how it would all be rebuilt and lovely with a new government installed for the Palestinians and Hamas banished, so we can all live peacefully together. The reality is that if Gazans flee to Egypt they will lose Gaza to the Israelis. The land will be absorbed into Israel’s borders and built on for the benefit of the Israelis. There. Answered it for you.

Etymology does not define the meaning of words. Anyway, killing a culture is a reasonable metaphor. Interestingly, genuine anti-semites make an equally silly argument from etymology, saying that "semite" includes arabs as well as Jews. Genocide means what it means, not what the classical language roots say what it should mean. Just like anti-semitic means anti-Jewish, whatever the word roots used to mean.

I'm sorry but I've just got to say, that there was a whole other ethnic group who were targeted at the same time. Up to 75% of Europe's Roma population was killed by the Nazis and their allies. Overall numbers may have been lower than the Jewish population but the percentage of the population was just as horrific.

I say this as someone whose family managed to escape and settle (although we still had to hide our heritage due to the discrimination towards the Roma people)

I'm not excusing anything! I'm just saying you can't call it a war.

I really don’t know how to describe the killing of between 1.6-7.9% of the population as anything other than Genocide.

bombing so called safe zones is a genocide.

firing and killing starved individuals , to stop them from getting to aid trucks , the flour massacre, is Genocide,

firing on a 5 year old girl is genocide.

abandoning premature babies to die and decompose is genocide .

there is really no other word out there.

How awful. I knew the Roma suffered terribly, but to lose 75% of their European population is shocking to me. I had no idea, I'm sorry.

Great point.

Here are three true statements:
(1) Genocide is never justified.

(2) Collective punishment is a war crime under humanitarian law.

(3) Hamas is evil and what they did to innocent Israeli people is evil.

Why should Hamas' actions condemn an entire ethnic group? The argument that they should is utter, racist madness. The evil actions of the East India Company don't make all British people deserving of collective punishment. The evil actions of the Confederacy don't make all Americans deserving of collective punishment. The evil actions of Hamas don't make all Palestinians deserving of collective punishment.

You know what. Fuck it. I really can’t be arsed arguing this point over and over with you. The civilians ARE the targets or they woudn’t be dying would they ? Israel are alleging that Hamas are using the civilians in Gaza as human shields, so that they can justify disregarding those civilians when they try to target Hamas. Independent investigations have confirmed there is no evidence that Hamas’ use of civilian areas meets the definition of human shielding under international law. Therefore Israel should not be targeting any civilian areas and should be protecting civilian life. Which they are not. It’s a war crime.

Do me a wee favour @Fruhstuck and have a look on the following Instagram accounts:

eyeonpalestine
motaz azaiza
middleeasteye
Dr ghassan. As

Just look. and then let me know if you still think that Israel are not deliberately targeting civilians and in particular - children

Fundamentally this war is taking place because Hamas took the hostages. Whilst I recognise that Hamas are not the Palestinian people and it has been a long time since they last had an election, my sympathies are with Israel, the only democracy in the region and ironically much more tolerant of the types of people who support Hamas over here. Why do Israel bomb hospitals etc? Mainly because Hamas use their own people as human shields. Hamas really are the bad guys. Not everyone agrees with my views, but if they are from the Zalta Sultana school of international policy I have little time for them.

@Rosscameasdoody

"The civilians ARE the targets or they woudn’t be dying would they ? "

I'm not sure if you fully understand how a war works.

Sure if we line everyone up in armour and swords in some empty field then of course civilians should not become casualties.

But times have changed and if the target is a munitions factory in an urban area then it is inevitable that a large number of innocent civilians are going to be killed in the bombing raid.

Fundamentally this war is taking place because Hamas took the hostages.

You need to read up on the history of the area as you're looking at the events of last October in a vacuum.

I'm not; I think founding Israel how they did on land that was settled and without making fair provision for the inhabitants was monumentally stupid, but given it exists, the people there should not be put at the risk they have been. However, prior to this war, Israel was getting along much better with others in the region, see the Abraham Accords. Then Hamas struck, probably at the will of Iran, perhaps specifically to stop this progress.

I do think it's genocide and I do think Netanyahu is trying to escalate the situation further, but I also think the attack on Israel was terrorism. It's clearly more complicated than good versus evil. At the heart of this innocent people have been killed and it is those people I care about.

Your friend is allowed to have her view on this as much as you are. It's up to you if you want to break the friendship over it or not, but my family have a lot of views I disagree with and I will not let that come between us. War will only stop if we stop allowing ourselves to be divided.

You're missing out the Nakba ie ethnic cleansing and the occupation of Gaza which is considered Apartheid with all the inhumanity that entails.

Palestine is one of the most overcrowded and deprived areas on earth. Israel also has thousands of Palestinian 'prisoners' being held without charge who are being tortured and raped.

The events of last October didn't happen in a vacuum. People were surprised that Iran were bombing Israel as though it came out of nowhere and was completely unexpected.

This comment shows a worrying lack of understanding of what AI is!

AI is just an amalgamation of all its sources, all of which are created by people and therefore are not neutral. Moreover the bias will be towards western, English language sources as that's what's most freely available online

None of those things are necessarily genocide. They could be war crimes. Or they could be part of collateral damage of war.

I’m not saying people are unaware of Ukraine or that there has been no action. But people are not batshit about it in the way they are about Palestine. It’s very sad that there is a war in the Middle East and the ongoing conflict is appalling - but the level of hysteria from middle-class mummies and posturing lefties over Palestine (Hamas is a regime that would see many of these people dead in hours for their values and lifestyle) is mind boggling.

It should be possible to disagree and still be friends. Discussion with people who disagree is the only way to improve the world.
Refusing to talk to people on the other side (in a civilised manner) is what causes problems in the first place.
If you can't discuss it without one of you getting upset or angry, either it's too personal or one person can't remain civil, you can still be friends just don't talk about politics.

I would stop being friends with someone based on their behaviour and not their politics.

Obviously if the person is deliberately baiting you they are not a nice person

There's a difference between because we (UK) are supporting the under dog (Ukraine). People see Palestine as the underdog too but the situation is much less straightforward there

How do you explain the events over the last 80 years?

Israel has been throwing white phosphorus on civilians in Palestine for the last 20 years ..
White phosphorus ignites whatever it lands on
And people burnt Alive

But I guess
It's allowed
Because America and UK government fund it

Wow so the current inhabitants of the land need protecting, the ones they displaced do not. Excellent.