To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

And what other term would you rather she had used, lovely ?
Ethnic cleansing? Mass extermination? Annihilation?

Because they all equally apply. Like someone else has said, you are the red flag here.

It hasn't exactly worked out for Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria though, has it, in no small part because the 'help' offered by Western/outside forces was largely self-serving and they were abandoned when no longer expedient. Afghan people weren't even allowed to flee to the UK when the Taliban returned to power. We shafted them good and proper. So not really the best of examples.

You can't put the onus onto civilians to sort out international conflicts - the idea is both ridiculous and victim-blaming.

So, just because the igf hasn't quite killed 2/3rds of population, it isn't attempted genocide?
Shall we return to definitions when that proportion is reached?
It's the principle, not numbers

Hmmm. Ultimately, though, there is really only one way this can/will end, and that's with Israel either wiping out or forcing out the current population of Gaza and absorbing it within its own borders. It's not a 'solution' but the way things are going, it's the only conclusion I can see (although it would need Egypt to open its borders and allow a huge settlement in the north of the country and it's not hard to see why they don't want to do this). Well, that or all-out war in the Middle East.

No. I would like a two-state solution, with the security of both guaranteed by the international community.

I am fed up with replying to so many people on this thread who see the conflict in such simplistic terms, Goodies (Palestinians) v. Baddies (Israelis), have such an incomplete knowledge of the history of the region, and act exactly like the "useful idiots" Hamas was hoping for. I don’t support Netanyahu, and wish Israel's response to the atrocities had been more restrained, but it is depressing how many people here have swallowed Hamas propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Wars are terrible. That’s why people shouldn’t deliberately and calculatedly start one.

I am therefore stopping following this thread and won’t read it again or reply to any more messages on this topic.

But you must see that your two-state solution, although ideal, is impossible. Neither side would agree to it, and even if they did, tensions are such that it would be unworkable. It would just end up going back to where we are now.

I am aware, btw, that Hammas would wipe out Israel if it had the chance. Israel does of course have the right to defend itself and its people. Any solution needs to keep Israelis safe too. I just can't see one that is workable (and not just me given this has been going on for decades now).

That should be idf not igf!

Using semantics to excuse the unspeakable atrocities of the terrorist attack on Israel is par for the course with antisemites. I expect nothing better.

Have you seen what the idf has done to Gaza?

It’s a massively complex subject, with many shades of grey. No country is 100% good or bad. But I think this quote from ex UK chief rabbi Jonathan Sacks is important:

One of the enduring facts of history is that most antisemites do not think of themselves as antisemites. We don’t hate Jews, they said in the Middle Ages, just their religion. We don’t hate Jews, they said in the nineteenth century, just their race. We don’t hate Jews, they say now, just their nation state.

And you know that how? By reading Hamas propaganda? I'm guessing most people in prisons dont think they should be there. But we have to assume that theyre there for a reason. And that its due to criminal behaviour.

Because they don't want to? Different situation re imprisonment for an israeli soldier to the torture and murder of civilians. By giving in to blackmail, Israel would leave themselves open to more kidnap and torture of civilians.

I think it's longer than a 10 minute walk to the beach from there as well was it definitely seaton meadows on seaton lane?

Aargh wrong post sorry. Reading one post and posting on another

No only entire families in one go 😔 how long before the entire people are wiped out I wonder

What? So the idf snatching children and putting them in the legal system is normal? Then the CHILDREN being tried in military courts is normal and when they finally get to closed prisons with no visitors they are there due to criminal behaviour. Ok. No its not ok.

Unfortunately, 'indefinite detention' without trial makes it difficult to ascertain why palestinian prisoners are in israeli jails - it's not at all like the UK prison system

It's been going forever and has been widely investigated and criticised by human rights organisations over many years

Again propaganda and hearsay. Easy to jump on something youve read to fit your own narrative. They've committed a crime, and punished accordingly. Just like if children here in the UK are locked up if they commit a crime. Eg, the13 year olds convicted last week of murder.

Then they should be charged with a crime and given access to legal counsel. There are thousands of Palestinians being held without charge in Israel.

All this shit because of a made up book

You're entitled to your view. I think you're wrong.

But please don't continue to use "it's a war" as an excuse.

Because "people die in war" is line one of the genocide denial playbook.

I wonder if anyone has considered asking AI to come up with a fair and feasible solution for Palestine/Israel. Seems to be beyond humans, and I'd be interested to hear a totally neutral take on it.

Absolutely @Efacsen The Save the Children report on the mistreatment of Palestinian children under military detention is appalling.

I completely agree. People who attack Jews and Jewish concerns are antisemitic. Disapproving of Israel's actions is not.

Your "friend" doesn't appear to be in the first camp, but the second? Unless you are missing a big part of your story?

1. I disapprove of Israels actions. I do agree with the UN that they are committing genocide. I agree Hamas are too. I think the whole thing is a total shitshow that cannot be stopped except by Israel. Both sides should be condemned for their absolute disregard of the deaths and maiming of the people who are just trying to live their lives.

1. I support Jewish rights. I condemn all attacks on Jewish people, or people of any faith.

Those two paragraphs are entirely unconnected.

I find it really amusing that you think other peoples’ views are simplistic when so many posters have corrected your own over simplifications. You didn’t even bother to educate yourself on international law determining human shielding before commenting. And you still haven’t answered my question upthread as to what you see happening to the land that is now Gaza after this conflict ends and it’s all been reduced to uninhabitable rubble ?