To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

I thought the "beheading babies" lie had been discredited? What Hamas actually did was bad enough without lying about it.

I’d like to believe you, but how do you know the majority of (adult) Palestinians don't support Hamas? The last time there was an election, in 2006, they voted for Hamas (despite the fact that the founding charter of Hamas called for the murder of all Jews).

Not being able to travel freely is quite different to being bombed
I very much doubt the womwen and children killed in Gaza are pro Hammas, mind you their families probably are now

The fact it was 2006 tells you everything you need to know. Look at the most recent polls and statistics regarding the opinion of the Palestinian population.

The attack was bad enough without spreading lies about beheaded babies.

There has however been multiple babies in Gaza who have had not only their heads but many other body parts dismembered by Israeli bombs.

It is. It is indeed antisemitic to condemn the state of Israel/Jewish people as a whole but absolutely fine to condemn the Palestinian people as a whole.

How do you know they do?

The civilians are not the targets.

So according to you, any fighters or terrorists can commit any atrocities they want and fire rockets at civilians from anywhere they like, apart from a marked military base, and should be safe from any reprisal? Weird.

No not really. It isn’t that binary. You can stand with Israel over October 7th for example and stand with Palestinian people now. Saying someone is uneducated because you don’t like their opinion is rude. What I don’t think is okay is to not see how both sides are wrong. Both sides have committed atrocities and it’s “uneducated’ to not see both sides.

On a separate but related note anti-semitism is wrong. Always. Discrimination is wrong. Always. Racism is wrong. Always. This is binary.

There is and has been evil on both sides and it is the ordinary families who are caught in the middle of this, as always happens.

I don’t. That’s why I said "I’d like to believe you".

There's 5.3million Palestinians in Palestine. 44,000 dead from Israeli retaliation.
Going by the literal definition of genocide, it's not genocide.

None of it. Do you know what a genocide ia?

I'm afraid YOU'RE the one with the worrying views OP. I say this as a Jewish person who supports freedom for the Palestinians who have endured almost 8 decades of Israeli brutality. Being critical of this, along with the year long genocide in Gaza is NOT anti-Semitic. Not in the slightest. Neither is the ICJ "anti-Semitic" for suggesting there's sufficient grounds to indict Netanyahu for genocide. Such decisions aren't taken lightly and I refuse to accept any notion of them being part of an anti-Semitic witchhunt. The international community is (slowly) waking up. The mass exodus of delegates from the UN General Assembly last week when Netanyahu took to the podium was very encouraging.
Being critical of the Israeli government and it's continued oppression of the Palestinian's is not anti-Semitic. Same as being critical of Putin doesn't make a person "anti-Russian" or "racist towards Russians". It's almost a lazy way of trying to shut down debate or differing viewpoints.

Very well said.

This

And to answer the OP, I would think she is one of the virtue signallers that follow the latest thing. Unless of course she actively calls outs every other conflict

The "protesting" students were a laughing stock with most grown ups

The UN is corrupt and proves itself to be so on an ongoing basis. Anyone going well the UN says X, so X must be true is not doing any thinking for themselves. (Lets bear in mind that right now the UN rejects the basic biology that sex is immutable.) Is Israel committing war crimes in Gaza? Very, very possibly. Does that amount to genocide? Very possibly. Are they fighting against an enemy that has stated over and over again that they want to wipe out Israel? Yes, undeniably. Is wiping out Israel a genocide. Yes, undeniably.

We can argue over and back that Israel should never have been established. It very possibly never should have. But we can't go back and change that. It's there now. It's establishment also lead to the expulsion on millions of Iranian jews who mostly went on to settle in Israel. So it's a hell of a lot more complicated than it initially seems. Either way. Israel exists and has done for nearly a century. We can't undo that. It's there and constant attempts to wipe it out and kill it's people are as much if not more of a genocide than what is happening in Palestine. You can't condemn the war in Gaza without acknowledging that Israel will be immediately subject to a genocide if the countries around it grow more powerful. (I mean you can - but you'd be a massive hypocrite.)

Is the UN offering to go into Gaza and stop the attacks on Israel? Are they offering a real solution? Israel isn't just an innocent victim here. Netenyahu is in large part, directly responsible for the creation of Hamas. He belongs in a jail cell. But the attacks on Oct 7th 23, were horrendous and everyone acts like Israel should just accept that and submit to more? That clearly isn't going to happen. Anyone who wants to stop the possible genocide in Gaza, needs to accept that the genocide of Israel is Hamas' stated intent. Because Israel can't back down until it's safe and it won't be safe while we pretend that this is just one sided and they are the only bad guy.

Penning people in. Refusing them food, electricity, water that’s not self defence it’s a seige.

“Israel has every right to defend itself against a genocidal attempt to eradicate it and its people.”
Eradicate its people - thats genocide.

no one said that. My point was the beheaded babies story was specifically created to start a war. The attacks on October 7 were awful, no one is disputing that.
but killing what is now thought to be over 20k children in response, what do you think about that? Do you have a view?

The most recent I have found is this, which says support for Hamas remains high. Do you have links to other polls you believe show otherwise?

https://www.npr.org/2024/07/26/g-s1-12949/khalil-shikaki-palestinian-polling-israel-gaza-hamas

They aren't penned in by Israel. Obviously Israel isn't going to let Palestinian refugees flood into Israel. That would be fucking stupid. Especially when Palestinian civilians routinely carry out attacks in Israel. But why is Egypt keeping its border closed. It's Egypt that is penning in the Palestinians.

Why does Israel have a responsibility to provide the country it's at war with, with food, water and electricity? Do you think that if Britain was supplying electricity to Germany in 1940, that the first thing they wouldn't have done once the Blitz started is stop wasting their own resources on the enemy? Even if it meant that German children suffered without that power, it's exactly what would have happened. You don't supply your enemy with the means to hurt you. Why do we expect Israel to act in a way that no country at war has ever in human history acted?

You are regurgitating claims without truly thinking what you are saying through. Again, Israel isn't a blameless victim here. But holding them to a ridiculous standard isn't going to do anything but prolong the conflict.

Actually no. It's not that Israel equals good and Gaza is bad. Not at all. Many of those whom stand with Israel do understand what is happening, and not only that, know the history of Israel too. Too many times I've had conversations with pro-Palestine supporters who do not know their history. It's embarrassing really, particularly how they're being manipulated into supporting known terrorists who are using Palestinians as human shields.

With regards to antisemtisim, this quickly becomes apparent when the veil slips and instead of talking about Israel and Israeli's, the word Jew/Jews/Zionists is used. James O'Brien is particularly guilty of this, as are so many on Mumsnet.