Doubts grow over Labour’s VAT plan for private schools

[Blanketyre]

Article in the Observer here:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/05/doubts-grow-over-labours-vat-plan-for-private-schools

I must say they've gone very quiet on it.

This feels like the same argument that people, who agree with grammars use against kids, who fail the 11+. I sat the 12+ and failed btw. So I know exactly what that feels like. I went to a dire school with a dumbed down education when I would have been capable of passing had I had more supportive parenting. I just lacked confidence in my ability rather than being less able. Decisions like this have life long consequences for the individual and no one should wish this on a child.

I am not 100% against grammars per se btw as I am aware that there are pockets of comprehensives sitting alongside grammars. I remember a post on here couple of years ago, where someone’s ds had passed the 11+ and they decided he’d be better off in the comp.

This is the sort of provision we should aspire to either with or without grammars. And I recognise this is extremely challenging for myriad reasons. However, if really decent provision were available, our kids, who we’ve put in private school just so they can access education, wouldn’t need to be in private provision.

We are also alleviating the burden for our kids on state so that there is more money for the kids in state, who need it. All that removing this boy from private provision achieves is ensuring the scarce resources available to kids with SEN in his new school become scarcer and everyone loses.

Anybody buying a luxury product or service should keep in mind that always being able to afford it might not happen. Shit happens .Its not the job of the state to cushion people buying into such things.

For many, especially those with SEN, attending a private school was far from a luxury, after they were failed by the state sector. It has saved their mental health, by attending small, nurturing schools. A decent education is not a luxury. The state aren’t “cushioning” it by not imposing a tax penalty. The glee in comments such as “shit happens” is really quite unpleasant, smug and bitter.

It’s not glee but it’s reality. When you sign up you need to be aware that fees rise and life shit happens. What are you going to do if fees get unmanageable? It’s the same consideration parents have to make when signing up to things like private therapy. How long can you afford it and what are you going to do if you no longer can?

Sick to death of SEN being continually used as a pawn in this debate too. Every child who needs to leave won’t automatically have SEN and the vast majority of kids with SEN have to and are getting on with the state system. Because your parents at one time could afford school fees and now can’t doesn’t make you any more special or needy than anybody else.

No one said they’re “more special”. Most people with any shred of decency or compassion though would agree that disrupting happy children part way through their education for the sake of a policy which doesn’t raise any meaningful money is pointless and spiteful. For what it’s worth, my children will be staying exactly where they are. They won’t need to move school and we can easily see them all through until 18. That doesn’t stop me seeing the problem with a pointless policy which negatively affects the lives of others though.

Hoards and hoards of kids have to move schools and survive. Forces kids do it all the time. It’s not the job of the state to hold up private education. You know these “amazing” schools that are so superior to anything in the state sector could do is what state schools do all the time- make cuts and absorb the cost. Funnily enough they’re not doing that because they’re businesses. Parents bought a product they can no longer afford. 95-93% of the population manage without this product, the few who will have to leave will be more than able to too.

It’s still a spiteful and pointless policy driven by emotion not reason, financial benefit or educational benefit

You can see that from Phillipson’s posts and reflected in posts from some on here

Exactly that. That's my kids. I sent them to state. I absolutely did not plan to have fees hanging around my neck, but the inadequacies of the state system to deal with bullying and cope with EBSA removed that option for me. I can be the most engaged parent in the world (I'm a teacher FFS) but I couldn't solve those problems. If I couldn't have accessed the private school they're in one would be at home lonely and bored and one would probably have harmed himself. So no, @Applebutt3r not really a luxury.

‘The problems in schools reflect poor parenting, lack of respect for teachers, poverty, entitlement, and a general culture of 'passing the buck'.’

Agreed. And this is why those overly gleeful over VAT will end up embarrassed. Hiring teachers is not the issue, you don’t throw water into a leaky bucket, you fix the bucket.

Wider societal issues are the cause of so many school issues. Making private schools more expensive won’t fix that.

It’s not the job of the state to hold up private education.

It doesn’t hold it up. The private sector is self sufficient. A private education doesn’t cost the taxpayer a penny.

I don’t understand the rather petty view that disrupting happy children is ok because others have to move for different reasons. I find it rather strange, and quite sad, that people are so intent on disrupting others’ lives just for the sake of it. Having such hatred and bitterness for something which doesn’t affect you can’t be a nice way to live.

What will help state schools is building specialist schools for kids with persistent behavioural issues. That way disruptive kids can be removed and specialist trained teachers can teach them.

All schools should stream for ability for English and Maths, ensuring children get the right support and challenge in those core subjects. This would be subject to review every term so kids can move between sets in things change.

@Another76543 it's because those children are called "Arabella" and "Sebastian" apparently. Those kids don't deserve any consideration and look down on everyone else, so fuck 'em. I've said upthread that even though it's a huge financial struggle for me, I would support VAT if it meant that all kids in all schools could, in time, have what my kids now have. But it won't. It won't do a single thing towards that. As a pp said, even if you could find and train 6500 more teachers, that would do nothing to address the issues my kids and others like them face.

Private education does affect all of us.It impacts our society hugely.

And no not intent on disruption but in full favour of the measure to charge VAT on it. It will impact very few. Maybe posters up in arms about should direct their anger to the schools themselves passing it on. They are after all complete havens unlike anything in the state sector. 🤔

‘The problems in schools reflect poor parenting, lack of respect for teachers, poverty, entitlement, and a general culture of 'passing the buck'.’

To be fair bar the poverty you see all that in spades amongst the private sector going by these threads with entitlement ringing loud and clear. Nice to see how scornful you are of the 95%.

Don’t posters realise they’re not entitled to private education. 😳

@Applebutt3r ok no idea what you're talking about now. One huge difference in the sectors, having taught in both, is the attitude to teachers. Nothing is perfect and nothing is absolute..you get good and bad across both but if you're going to try and pretend that social deprivation and poor attitudes to education aren't linked then you are deluded and just deliberately stirring the pot.

Your posts sound like Phillipson’s, motivated by taking away from other children

It’s not a good enough reason to damage education

I have never in all my life seen a government so unpopular. Not even the Tories….. Every post the Labour Party or Keir Stamer puts on Twitter (and there are many slogans every day) are met with a torrent of abuse. Where are the supporters, where are the many voters? Gone!!!!!

Many forces kids go to boarding school for that exact reason. Military families are 1 of the potential legal challenges to this policy

Schools legally have to pass on VAT, same as shops + tradespeople. They can potentially reduce fees to mitigate but as 75% of outgoings are on staff then that's the most realistic cost cutting area as schools still have to pay pensions, rising utility bills etc. Teacher redundancies are why teaching + head teacher unions are calling for a pause in the policy.
I am angry at Labour for going against every other European country in taxing education. I'm not angry at the schools for following the law and passing VAT on

I think a lot of voters thought Labour would help us - god knows we needed help as a nation. But it feels as though they are in an ivory tower, handing down punishments from above to those who they don't agree with ideologically. That twix post from Bridget Philippson about schools was bloody awful, personal and nasty.

I still have a sliver of hope that maybe they will turn out to be the modern, progressive party I thought they might be. But this country doesn't seem to be able to do politics very well.

I think so many posters here are sadly wasting their time trying to (mostly) politely debate the issue.

When the deeply unpleasant Phillipson has a clarion call of ‘embossed stationery…pools…AstroTurf’ the tone is set. As are the minds of her acolytes.

Yet the assertion that it impacts our society massively has been disproven on this thread. The actual biggest impact ie having a stable home life + a 2 parent household, education is actually #8 on the list.
There is massive inequality in the state sector which perpetuates inequality much more than indy schools. Don't see you shouting out about that! If Laboir cared about state education they would be incressing funding per pupil, they aren't. If you believe they care then you are deluded.
The single source flawed IFS report that Labour built this policy on has now been exposed as being written by an education MPs best friend. Impartial it isn't. No other report has recommended this policy, and the majority have denounced it. It is born out of spite not any real attempt to improve state education. Even Labour MPs and peers are starting to speak out against it.
You are simply trotting out Labour party lines in the same copy and paste way as all other Labour MPs, with obviously no real insight into the incredibly complex indy sector.

You just shouldn't ever, EVER, tax education.

I have no skin in the game as my kids left school a year ago, but taxing education, for whatever spurious reason is just plain wrong.

Yes I saw that

Couldn’t agree more @Blanketyre re not taxing education. Labour are failing on this for spite.

It’s not the job of the state to hold up private education

This is back to front. You’ve got this wrong

Seriously please explain how the state holds up private schools? You can't because they dont! The clue is in the name: independent schools. The state pays 0 towards them, they are all self funded.
You really do sound like Phillipson with the Labour lies and divisive language