Doubts grow over Labour’s VAT plan for private schools

[Blanketyre]

Article in the Observer here:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/05/doubts-grow-over-labours-vat-plan-for-private-schools

I must say they've gone very quiet on it.

@Whatevers approx 5% of secondary schools are grammar schools - would you suggest a similar cap for those students?

It's a silly debate because many more private schools are academically selective, so it's obvious based on that alone that they would be overrepresented in further education / at top universities.

Children of parents who give a sh*t are also overrepresented even if you look at state sector only... shall we try to introduce some sort of cap for that too?

Having fewer independent schools makes those schools more elitist, not the whole system. Though I agree there are inequalities now - that’s why major, targeted investment is needed alongside this policy.

I’m not sure why you are directing this at me. I’m the one saying that state schools need more investment.

I believe selection is based more than on grades? I seriously doubt people at Oxford are running their hands together in glee turning down state school students... As @ladykale mentions it is likely due to other related factors - life experiences like holidays, investing in activities, exposure to science, the theatre etc. Private schools do provide a lot of enriching experiences, but other state school parents go out of their way to make sure their children don't miss out. I know parents who massively sacrifice to make sure their children get to go to the theatre or museums...

I think you’ll find I’m on the other side of the argument. I was only teasing the other poster. What people really don’t notice is that 93% is all students. Private schools educate 20% of 6th formers. Also many courses require a student to have studied particular subjects at Alevel that state schools don’t teach like Russian or Latin or philosophy. State schools usually prioritise the most competitive subjects like maths and English. I think they need to take out the niche subjects that state schools don’t prepare students for to make a clearer comparison.

I don’t think going to museums really cuts it with UCAS. No uni should be selecting on holidays and trips to the theatre.

That's not what I'm saying.

Selection isn't based simply on grades
There are interviews.
The way students do better at these is by having enriching experiences and discussion.
Private schools do provide these. So do many state school parents.

I thought UCAS had done away with the personal statement and was now focusing on 3 questions not enrichment- Why do you want to study this course, How have your studies helped prepare and What else have you done to prepare?

Forgot to quote poster.

Of course I understand that which is why it is not fair that only people who can afford to buy near a good school get to go to those schools. If it was done by lottery then the parents who are interested in their children's education would be split between all the schools and the children of poorer parents would get a fair chance. At the moment, they have no chance and it will get even worse when all the parents who can't afford the VAT buy up houses near the good schools.

Actually, I have taught in both sectors and overseas. We travelled a great deal with DH assignments.
Many choose to work in International or private schools overseas and enjoy the ex pat life.

Some emigrate and settle overseas.
In my experience many also come back to the UK for many reasons.

I know quite a few who have returned from the Middle East in the last year. Along with at least two who had been teaching in Russia.

I suppose the grass is always greener!

If two candidates for a classics degree have the same UCAS grade and one has been learning Latin since year 3 and Greek since year 7 and has an excellent grasp of it as in he/she can translate the Iliad and the other state schooler has no clue, who should get the place? At some point in life a judgement has to be made. Public school students have provided the raw material that built elite U.K. universities for centuries. State schools advocates now want a thumb on the scale because they can’t, despite knowing for decades what they need to do, make their students good enough. I actually think at some time Oxford and/or Cambridge might leave this system.

This is exactly what is going to happen. People will buy properties near the best state schools. I know I would. It’s a win win, nice house, near a great school, leaving plenty of money to travel etc. It’s a no brainer.

Imagine having £30-40k a year spare by simply moving.

Exactly, so the poor kids whose parents can't afford to buy a house near a good school (like my parents when I was a child) will lose out.

Thanks a lot Labour.

But you’re ok with the poor kids whose parents can’t afford private school?

But the parents of poor kids can't afford lots of things, not just education. No-one says that it is unfair that they can't afford a Porsche.

The school admissions system should be a genuine lottery so that parents priced out of private schools can't buy up the houses around good school so that poor kids like I was can't get in to a good school.

I hope Labour makes it a lotery does this but I think that they are too stupid to realise what is going to happen with their policy of envy.

Actually a better example is organic food. Should we put VAT on organic fruit and veg because poor people can't afford to buy it?

how is that even a comparible analogy?

VAT is ridiculous anyway ie ice cream is zero rated whereas frozen yoghurt isn't

we can't afford to move, but my daughter got into an excellent school this year because the catchments increased. There are 2 spare places in her class too, this is because of the low birth rate.

that being the case, why aren't they all doing this already?

Seriously you cannot have it both ways, instead of saying poor kids cannot go to PS, how about poor kids can’t get a decent state school which should be a basic request.

posters here say, can’t afford the 20 rise, too bad, save or pull your kids out.

you also forget PS help pay for poorer kids to go to their schools, I don’t see the state helping in that regard. That will definitely be withdrawn. Buts it’s ok, state parents will get a few crumbs of toast and basic concentrated orange juice (they will not actually get it but is a vote winner)

people forget it took a footballer to highlight the lack of school meals and now suddenly people believe this govt will care. I think they showed their caring nature with fuel allowance changes

They are hence the drop in Indy intake this year!!

You've described my dd perfectly. She fell apart to the extent that she avoided school altogether for a whole term. We can't afford to pay private, so we had to fight for our ehcp to prove she needed one (thankfully, her not being in school focused their attention). We got it, they put in place changes, she's now thriving in mainstream. Much of the improvement has come from our own increases awareness, understanding and support.

I agree actually that income tax should be raised to improve education and SEN provision for all (and mental health services too). But I don't think many private school parents would agree with that either somehow.