To believe in karma, even though it doesn’t always seem to work?

[DreamyPearlPeer]

I’ve always believed that what goes around comes around, but lately I’ve been questioning whether karma really exists. I see people who do terrible things and seem to get away with it, while others are good struggle endlessly. AIBU to still believe in karma, or is it just wishful thinking?

Do you know what the original scriptures are even called?
You're right, you don't know the basics about Santhan Dharam which you're referring to as Hinduism.
Dharma, Karma and reincarnation, Moksha is at the core.
Ramayan, Mahabharat - that isn't about Karma and reincarnation?!
The trinity of Lord Brahma, Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva - what are they getting involved with mortals for? When they punish Demi Gods such as Lord Inder - that isn't about Karma?

Have you converted or were born into Buddhism or Jainism.

Most Indians know there are more than 4 religions yet you continuously say there are only 4 religions that believe in this concept.

I don't care if you question me, you're not significant.
However, it's clear that I'll be wasting my time discussing this with you.

Do you have memory and knowledge of everything in your DNA and what problems it will cause in your body in future?

How you ended up with that particular combination of DNA?

DNA was there long before anyone had known about. It didn't just turn up when scientists found out about it.

Did people know which defects in their DNA their bodies were being punished for?

We will all be punished one way or the other during our lives.

Why don't we know in advance what sort of lives we will go through?

Why can't science tell us from the moment a baby is born, everything it will go through in its life?

Does science not exist if it can't tell you that?

As a very broad generalisation, you can consider Karma to be the DNA of the soul.

Not having knowledge or memory of it doesn't necessarily mean it is not there.

The soul is the same, in the previous life, in this life and in the next life.

The soul carries its Karma balance from one life to the other.

As it advances spiritually, it will get memory and knowledge of its Karma and will be able to get rid of the remaining balance, achieving 'Nirvana', another concept very badly misunderstood outside the cultures that have believed in it for a long time.

'Hinduism' is the commonly understood word and I am using it. In India and outside, people refer themselves as 'Hindus'.

Apart from the well known four, name one other religion which believes in Karma and Reincarnation.

As far as I know, the original Hindu scripture is the Rigveda. Have you read it? Tell me where it mentions 'Karma'.

The trinity of Lord Brahma, Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva - tell me where it is mentioned in the Rigveda, the oldest 'Santhan Dharam' scripture.

This thread is about Karma.

You said that since posters here don't believe in God, they won't believe in Karma.

I pointed out the fact that Buddhists and Jains believe in Karma but not in a Creator God, but you dismissed that fact.

You are not discussing - you are asserting that what you believe is 100% true.

Which is a shame because since we both believe in Karma, and this thread is about Karma, it would be more helpful to put arguments which counter those saying it is delusion.

You are right in saying I am not significant!

You clearly haven't read it or understood it!
Rudra is Shiva.
Your teacher has failed you.

Apologies, Justice4Friend, the Rigveda does mention the word 'Karma', but only as a duty towards Dharam and nothing to do with the Karma we are talking about here.

It became more defined in 'Santhan Dharam' much later at the time when the 'Shraman' philosophy is known to have existed.

All this happened more than 2,500 years ago and there is no clear cut answer from scholars as to who explained it first.

What you are insisting to be true is a matter of faith but cannot be asserted in black and white to others.

Almost all researchers of Sikhism will say that Sikhs rejected idol worship because of Muslim influence, but Sikhs have their own views on it.

You were talking about the original scriptures of 'Santhan Dharam', that is the Vedas and Upnishads.

Does the Gurugranthsahib incorporate the Vedas and Upnishads in full?

Does it include everything about the the trinity of Lord Brahma, Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva, and the Ramayan and Mahabharat?

Are the differences between Sikhism and what is commonly known as Hinduism only practical rather than philosophical?

I dont believe in karma in a woo woo reincarnation sense but I absolutely believe in it from an "actions have consequences" sense and I have seen it play out countless times.

It might not happen immediately but it does happen. If you behave like an arsehole to others it does come back to get you eventually because your inner state (if it's hateful) affects the world you perceive and experience. How could it not?

That doesnt mean bad shit never happens to good people because it does, but if you interact with the world in a selfish, greedy, mean spirited manner you will eventually reap what you sow. I've witnessed it happen too many times not to believe this.

Yeah I have heard of that. I am so unlucky I sometimes think I must have been someone awful in a previous life.

Until someone can explain how you can be a serial rapist and own Harrods, I'm going to stick to the conviction that it's crap.

That’s a good question and one I think which illustrates how karma works quite well. Assuming you’ve read previous explanations that karma operates in a multi life model and not based on just this life as is commonly thought. Al fayed is likely in the past to have created the fortunate karma to be wealthy, by being generous in a previous incarnation. He also in the past has created the tendency to be a rapist by previously being a rapist. Karmic results are said to be effects similar to the cause, but increased. This explains babies arriving with very specific tendencies that can’t be explained by environment or genetics. They were like that in one, or more likely many, previous lives.

The important point in your question is, if he was a rapist in previous lives, how has he found himself in a fortunate situation now? My understanding is it’s a complex interplay of factors - one of the main being the importance of the state of mind a person dies with, determining which ‘karmic seed’ will ripen to produce the next life. So someone with the previous karmic potential of committing terrible actions (that’s everyone unless they have trained the mind) could still die with a peaceful and loving mind, or die saving someone else, or in some positive way, and receive a fortunate rebirth. Then all the other imprints of all the other previous actions ripen in that life as day-to-day experiences, both good and bad.

That's why for Buddhists a huge focus is training the mind so that at the time of death they can be peaceful and compassionate which are the conditions for positive karma to ripen and not negative. And keeping the mind loving and happy in general is the best way to help positive ‘seeds’, rather than negative, to ripen.

Al Fayed will undoubtedly reap the results of the actions he has sown, at some time in the future and what he experiences will be worse than what he has meted out.

You do know, don't you, that this meticulously-constructed, reverentially-regarded and carefully-presented argument is completely and utterly made up? There is nothing at all to support it. Nothing. At all.

It's just....I mean...you know....invented.

I disagree, and find it very logical when you study the ins and outs. Clearly you don’t, which is ok!

I also find the way absolute rot is being promulgated here disturbing and take issue with it.

I used to have a friend who was a devout Buddhist. She struggled with her health and ability to do her job. But whenever you tried to talk about addressing any of her issues, she'd just shut down and moan, "Oh, it's just my negative karma!"
I think that is the danger of these teachings for some people - they take it as they deserve to suffer to purify their "negative karma" rather than proactively deal with the issues at hand.

All religions (and pseudo-religions) have highly convoluted "explanations" for why awful shit happens. It's much less mental effort to embrace absurdism, accept that we live in a howling chaos, and that there's no such thing as any kind of natural justice, God's plan, or karma. Whatever philosophy it's dressed up in, it's all the same comfort blanket concept.

I often wonder why polytheism died out in most human cultures. If you must have a supernatural explanation for the shit show, a bunch of self-interested gods squabbling over various conflicts of interest, which directly or indirectly affect humans, makes far more sense than one god with an unknowable plan.

I didn't say it wasn't logical. I said it was completely invented.

Like chess. Or dungeons and dragons. Or - perhaps more pertinently - snakes and ladders.

Do you think it came back to Hitler?

Maybe in the sense he must have been terribly distressed in his inner state in his bunker during his final hours?

Isn't it 'woo woo' or wishful thinking that a terrible person must have had consequences in their inner state before dying?

You have seen it play out countless times, but there are countless people, myself included, who have seen it not play out countless times.

In real life it is crystal clear that most (bad[ actions don't seem to have consequences and too many people are getting away with it.

If there are consequences, the only logical explanation would be most of them they happen after death.

It only.works if you have a conscience. If not, you can get away with murder and not suffer for it.

According to my understanding, everyone has a mix of good Karma and bad Karma.

The important thing is to avoid the sort of behaviour that is a cause for acquiring bad Karma.

The four Indian religions that have Karma as core to their philosophy have described the actions which lead to bad Karma (and good Karma).

Mind you they are not all the same - they have major differences!

My best friend and most wonderful woman I knew died this year at 35 years old of a brain tumour.
She also believed 'everything happened for a reason'.
I sometimes wonder if she ever doubted that as she took her dying breaths.

There is no reason.
There is no fate.
There is no justice.
Life is a series of random events.

The sooner people realise that the better.

According to my understanding, there are two sides to it.

It is right to accept that one's problems are a consequence of one's own past negative Karma.

If a person has been wronged, it shouldn't stop the person from trying to get justice as per the laws of the land.

But the person should avoid acquiring new negative Karma by being consumed with thoughts of revenge.

The second side is Buddhism and the other religions that believe in Karma are very clear about being proactive in what you do to acquire good Karma and avoid accumulating bad Karma.

But you are right, there is a danger of people becoming resigned to their fate.

But that is due to not having a proper understanding of the religion they are following, which is Buddhism in your friend's case.

If Karma exists then my ex husband should be shitting himself.

Sadly, it doesn't.

I agree that all religions seek to answer why bad shit happens, and personally can’t get along with the idea of God’s plan. I disagree with the comfort blanket bit in respect of karma though. To me it’s no mental effort to say ‘it’s one life only and nothing I can do about it’, compared with ‘my actions have consequences for me in this life and beyond, and if I want to change that, I have to change my mental habits/behaviours’. That’s taking personal responsibility and not an easy thing to do at all.

It's exactly the same thing as God's plan though. It's a clunky explanation of Why Shit Happens, combined with a set of rules (albeit not set down on tablets of stone) to help you tip the balance in your favour by being a Good Person. Karma may not involve an angry god, but it's the same idea.

When shit happens to good people, you're told it'll be better in the next life—it's the same comfort blanket whether that next life is heaven or reincarnation.

I see what you are saying, but I think the idea of punishments handed down by a God is very different to the concept of a natural law that you can observe and choose to take advantage of.

Also it’s unfortunately not consistent with teachings on karma to say ‘it’ll be better in the next life’ - it’s less of an optimistic picture really because karma is created out of mental actions. That means that moment by moment we are creating karma that we will experience eventually, and without a consistent level of training to help us go against our (often pretty self obsessed) desires, we continue to experience suffering.

I know you don’t believe this and probably don’t want further info, so not sure why I am expanding but just perhaps helpful for the initial scope of the thread - that the concept of karma is not what is commonly thought, and in the west it’s hard to divorce it from our Christian cultural upbringings that bring in the ideas of punishments and salvation, which are just not part of it.