Excluded from grandchildren's life

[GrandmDEA]

I'm going to try and keep this short but I have 3 sons, one of them moved abroad many years ago for work, it was meant to be short term but he fell in love with a girl 10 years his junior, married her 9 months later and they had a child a year after that. A couple of years ago this same country that they were living in and she was from ended up in a war, they moved to the UK with their 2 children immediately. They live in London, fairly central, they pay way below market rate in rent as someone he works with owns it but it is a tiny 2 bed and they have 2 children, one who has just turned 5 and the other just turned 3.
We have always had issues with them, we weren't invited to the wedding, in fact we didn't know they were married until after the wedding happened! We had never met her. She clearly has no respect for our family but we try to keep the peace.
This year we have seen our grandchildren 2 times, we only live an hour away but they don't let us visit, if we show up uninvited on the weekend, they are always busy. If we ask to go up to see them it is always "no the house is too small for guests". My sons is meant to bring them to see us once a month but most times he ends up coming alone with some excuse. We haven't seen his wife since Christmas!
Our son was meant to be bringing them to see us tomorrow, we have spent £100s on birthday gifts for them as they both had birthdays at the very end of August. Today he has messaged saying sorry we can't come the girls will be too tired after a week at school/nursery, we will see you during half term! This happens every time.
We have had some big fall outs over decisions they make such as his wife continues to take their tiny children to a war torn country to visit her family, putting them through 24 hours of travel to get there and back! My son never goes with her and I don't think he actually agrees with her but lets her do it anyway. It stresses me out when she takes them to there, I worry for their safety so I have voiced that I don't agree with it. We obviously also got off on the wrong foot with the lack of wedding invite to anyone in our family. We only mention things that concern us out of care but it is always taken as an insult.

AIBU to be really hurt they keep excluding us? The grandchildren have spent several weeks this year with their maternal family and they all live in a war torn country, but barely 2 half days with us who live much closer!

It doesn’t matter what anyone here may or may not feel - it isn’t up to anyone but the parents. That isn’t a matter of opinion, it’s a fact.

Op can either respect their decisions and have a chance of a relationship with them all, or she can can keep arguing with thin air (because they’re not going to make themselves available to hear it).

One could also suggest:

Should the children have rights about who they want to see?

What if the children in this case want to see their grandmother?

Shouldn't they have rights?

‘Should’ doesn’t come into it - that’s a decision for the parents to make. The children may or may not take issue with this later, and that holds true for any decision a parent makes on their behalf as dependent children.

My guess is OP hada vision and expectation that all her adult kids would be around her along with grandchildren and her son had his own plans about his future and she cannot accept that.

Her son chose to move 1,000 miles away to another country. Her son chose to marry a citizen there despite her opinions and reservations. Herson knew how she would be and react so to save him and his bride the stress and his mother’s judgments, he didn’t invite her. It’s easier to blame her DIL than to admit to herself her son doesn’t want to be around her and their family and I highly don’t she doesn’t know why, but if she actually doesn’t, I bet others around do or have an inkling.

@samarrange i know this isn't the point of the thread, but some of your comments here grabbed my eye. When you say "In fact one of the reasons the West is supporting Ukraine, apart from the obvious issues of morality and the strategic need to weaken Russia, is because if it looked like the country was about to collapse" can you tell me more about what you say about the country being on the point of collapse? The bit about the need to weaken Russia sounds interesting too - you are saying that Ukraine is being used by the west to weaken Russia?

can you tell me more about what you say about the country being on the point of collapse?

I didn't (I think) say that Ukraine was or is on the point of collapse. My point is that if it looked like Russia was going to complete a military/puppet government takeover of Ukraine, a very large number of Ukrainians would surely flee westwards, fearing rape and murder at the hands of Russian troops. The fact that they haven't, and in particular that so many have returned since the spring of 2022, suggests that they don't expect that to happen.

you are saying that Ukraine is being used by the west to weaken Russia?

De facto, yes. Russia started the war, but basically what's happening now is that Ukraine is sapping Russia's military strength at a cost to the West that is just a rounding error in our collective defence budget, with Ukrainian rather than allied lives being lost.

NATO doesn't want to get involved in a shooting war, but it has a big interest in Russia being unable to envisage causing trouble in, say, Latvia. I say this in what I hope is a totally non-conspiratorial way; it's a fact that Russia has lost an enormous amount of equipment, and the deficiencies of their weapons systems and general military organisation have been exposed by the war. I don't know whether Western leaders sit around cackling at how clever they are getting Ukraine to do all the hard work, I actually rather doubt it, but hopefully Putin will realise that if he has got a bloody nose at the hands of a country with no navy and close to no air force, he would get absolutely slaughtered if he took on NATO.

My MIL found it very difficult to let her son go when he married me. She turned up uninvited at our house many times and even moved in when we were away on holiday. Turning up without an invitation shows a totally unwarranted sense of entitlement and in my case caused still unresolved issues in my marriage. So just don't do it.

So when you say "at a cost to the West that is just a rounding error in our collective defence budget, with Ukrainian rather than allied lives being lost" are you saying that the Ukrainian government is aware of this?

Of course they are - it isn’t a new tactic or an uncommon one. It’s realpolitik AND weltpolitik.

I'm sorry you find yourself with such a family rift and it must be hard not seeing your DGCs.

You say she doesn't respect your family, but your OP also betrays that you also don't respect her. You clearly dislike her, don't approve of the age gap or the country she comes from, which is part of your DGCs' heritage, or her parenting decisions.

Respect cuts both ways, I'm afraid.

@GrandmDEA unfortunately saying you think she's a gold digger undermines so much. It's saying you think your son is thick and stupid, easily manipulated and prone to being a sucker. In addition to that it's saying the woman he loves, doesn't love him either.

Obviously it's also totally insulting to her.

When someone makes these commentary does the son or daughter ever think, true let's dump them?

Lots of deeply unpleasant comments are made under "we care about you banner", like "banter" and bullying in school.

No. Three- and five-year- old children absolutely should not get to override their parents’ judgements about which adults should be around them and have significant roles in their lives.

@dennybev1 To quote you

"I am shocked at the hostility of some of the responses you are receiving. I'm guessing most of those telling you it's none of your business, etc., are Mums who are not yet grandmothers. They will no doubt feel differently when they have grandchildren"

You clearly haven't read through, though there are alot of pages so that is understandable.

I am a Nana to 5 who are all in my life. To repeat briefly I keep my own counsel. I do not interfere or give opinions. I have 2 DiLs and 1 SonILaw.

Thus, because I do I have a good relationship with my DiLs and SonILaw as well as the ILaws family.

If you read further through the pages the OP speaks of her DiL further and the open disdain for her DiL even before they married it's not surprising they stay away.

My 1st ex deceased MiL was s nightmare. My 2nd MiL was amazing. I love and miss her dearly.

Wow. You’re blaming your DIL for most of this when it’s your son’s responsibility, (or probably decision) to stay in contact.
She wants to see her family as they are obviously close.
The same bond isn’t there with you and your son and therefore his children.
You sound very opinionated, OP. This obviously hasn’t gone down well with them.

10 years age difference is not that big a gap, and how do you know what her type is? Sounds like you think she's way out of your sons league. Is he unattractive and/or has terrible social skills or something? I mean obviously he's gonna be better off financially due to the stage of life he's at but no wonder he's offended you've basically insinuated she can't possibly really love him...

@HideousKinky is right here.

It's a good life lesson to always think about how our actions appear to others as it makes us empathetic and able to temper our actions and reactions.

YABU: grandparents are not entitled to relationships with grandchildren, especially when the relationship with the adult child is fragile. It is clear your son wanted to distance himself from you for many reasons. Perhaps address that first, make amends, repeatedly show behavior your son can trust you and then maybe you can see the grandchildren more.

Yet know that you are not entitled to a relationship with your son either. It seems you have been meddling in his marriage with your opinions. If he is ok with what his wife does, that is enough. I do not get all of this worrying about grandkids, really, they are not your children.

If your son does not want a relationship, you need to let this go.

I feel strongly about this as I had a meddling f%&)ing parent for years. They could NOT accept my choices and kept badgering me, calling me, fake worrying (as an excuse to stay in contact). I went NC. I have a kid, and ALL OF A SUDDEN they are freaking out, wanting to be included. Well, no, that parent lost the first time around. It is not my responsiblity to make them feel comfortable and included when they disrespected my boundaries for years.

Best thing to do is lead your life, stop meddling and let them come to you if and when they are ready.

And that is your choice. There are many who have taken their DC to Australia, NZ, Thailand without issue

As a grandma to a 3 and 5 year old myself, it says something to me that you say you've 'spent hundreds' on their birthday presents , as though the cost makes them more important. It doesn't - and may annoy the parents who don't want their kids spoilt : there's probably also a disparity between what you can afford and what the Kyiv family ( or the parents ) can, so a bit of discretion is needed

I don't think you have to say much for DC to construe a whole lot out of it. My mother can condemn my life choices crushingly with barely a rise of her eyebrow!

You might think you were tactful but if you unpack it, they might have the picture you were saying Ukrainian women are whores and golddiggers, your son doesn't know how to work out if love is genuine or not, and they wilfully put their children at risk of death. Sounds like enough to put me off a Sunday teatime! They might feel that if you visit you'll criticise other things about their household.

Anyway, you've obviously caused offence somehow. If you want things to change you'll need to be prepared to be open minded and listen, say you want a reset and don't be defensive if they say you upset them.

I've had friends from central/eastern Europe and there are so many stereotypes - you can say one thing and they know you're referring to a whole idea of their country that they find offensive.

I'd also start with learning about Ukraine. History, culture, food etc. The area she's from. Start thinking of the cultural element as a positive, not a negative. It's a big country and only a section of it is at risk of bombing, a lot of it has disruption to power etc but not enough to stop you from visiting.

Вибачте, що я був ідіотом. давайте почнемо знову
There's Ukrainian for 'I'm sorry I've been an idiot, let's start again' :)

Grandparents have no legal rights in the UK.

Lol at your mother in law moving in. How did that happen?

When I was on my honeymoon my mother brought all my boxes to our house and stacked them up in the living room. When we came back we could hardly get the living room door open. Relations didn't improve from there!

I recommend this wonderfully connective and practical guide to you OP and to all parents including those with grown children. It really gives a wonderful perspective on how we can heal relationships and reflect on our actions with great compassion.
The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read (And Your Children Will Be Glad You Did) by Phillipa Perry.

I can't even imagine what you could buy for a 3 or 5 year old that would cost hundreds? At that age they just want colouring books and pencils or a lego set. Much better to ask if they need anything and if not offer cash or vouchers to put towards whatever they need in the next few months.

No they don’t have rights.

They do, however, or should, have a degree of emotional investment and to some extent I think many of the comments on this thread about op “ having opinions” on how they should fo things probably have come from people who have not yet had gc. I haven’t; but I can tell already that the urge to say things like “ be careful” to my Dc in the grand old tradition of mothers everywhere is a harbinger that I will still feel concern when my Dc are grown - they are just bigger issues. As a child I thought my mum was soooo annoying saying “be careful” ( as if I would be intentionally reckless, 🙄I used to think).

I don’t think op’s instinct to “meddle” in that sense is as grotesquely unnatural as is being made out on this thread. BUT, having said things as comprehensively negative as thd dil is a gold digger ( rather than the more standard fare such as do you think gc might scream inconsolably after milk because he’s lactose intolerant, or similar) I do think op has to be realistic about how they will react. I’m not actually saying op shouldn’t necessarily have said it: it I were genuinely convinced of the same I would probably warn my Dc. However, saying it is a risk we knowingly take. It’s natural for parents to want to try to give their Dc an environment that is as conflict free and positive as possible, so exclusion of grandparents whom they suspect will bring a different vibe to the relationship is a natural defence mechanism. Op has to be realistic about that.