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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Excluded from grandchildren's life

608 replies

GrandmDEA · 27/09/2024 13:09

I'm going to try and keep this short but I have 3 sons, one of them moved abroad many years ago for work, it was meant to be short term but he fell in love with a girl 10 years his junior, married her 9 months later and they had a child a year after that. A couple of years ago this same country that they were living in and she was from ended up in a war, they moved to the UK with their 2 children immediately. They live in London, fairly central, they pay way below market rate in rent as someone he works with owns it but it is a tiny 2 bed and they have 2 children, one who has just turned 5 and the other just turned 3.
We have always had issues with them, we weren't invited to the wedding, in fact we didn't know they were married until after the wedding happened! We had never met her. She clearly has no respect for our family but we try to keep the peace.
This year we have seen our grandchildren 2 times, we only live an hour away but they don't let us visit, if we show up uninvited on the weekend, they are always busy. If we ask to go up to see them it is always "no the house is too small for guests". My sons is meant to bring them to see us once a month but most times he ends up coming alone with some excuse. We haven't seen his wife since Christmas!
Our son was meant to be bringing them to see us tomorrow, we have spent £100s on birthday gifts for them as they both had birthdays at the very end of August. Today he has messaged saying sorry we can't come the girls will be too tired after a week at school/nursery, we will see you during half term! This happens every time.
We have had some big fall outs over decisions they make such as his wife continues to take their tiny children to a war torn country to visit her family, putting them through 24 hours of travel to get there and back! My son never goes with her and I don't think he actually agrees with her but lets her do it anyway. It stresses me out when she takes them to there, I worry for their safety so I have voiced that I don't agree with it. We obviously also got off on the wrong foot with the lack of wedding invite to anyone in our family. We only mention things that concern us out of care but it is always taken as an insult.

AIBU to be really hurt they keep excluding us? The grandchildren have spent several weeks this year with their maternal family and they all live in a war torn country, but barely 2 half days with us who live much closer!

OP posts:
Oriunda · 28/09/2024 10:33

GrandmDEA · 27/09/2024 13:26

We see both of our other sons most days, we provide childcare for our other grandchildren and have them all for dinner on Wednesdays. They don't see much of their brother either.

This would horrify me. You see your sons every day, and their families every week for dinner? I’d definitely have moved far away.

OP, you sound horribly judgemental. Golden rule: get on with your DIL, even superficially, or be prepared to see less of the grandchildren.

My MIL is awful to me; luckily we only see them when we travel down to their country. This summer, my DH was away for 4 days. During that time, I had a break and didn’t see her or take my DS to see her (otherwise it was daily when DH was there). She complained and made snarky comments, but I think it actually hit her for the first time that without DH, she and I have no relationship and neither does my son with her (I won’t stand for her being rude to me in front of him; she started on me and we left immediately).

InterIgnis · 28/09/2024 10:36

Arran2024 · 28/09/2024 09:42

Well, I do believe that some men just go along with what their wives want because I have seen it. My own brother for example. The OP could be describing my sister in law.

Thing is, if the wife doesn't want to see the OP, that's one thing. But OP doesn't see her son much either.

My daughter was subject to coercive control by her ex boyfriend and it is a real thing. I am surprised you seem to think it is not.

It’s also very easy to blame an outside influence because a loved one isn’t doing what you think they should/you want them to do.

Nothing OP has said suggests he’s been controlled by his wife. What she’s said actually points to them not being interested in being controlled, and keeping their distance from someone who considers themselves entitled to have a deciding say over their lives. Op not seeing her son very much predates him meeting his wife by years.

”This happens every time. We have had some big fall outs over decisions they make”

If control is an issue in this situation, it’s because OP doesn’t have it. They’ve distanced themselves because she insists on creating arguments by pushing her unwanted opinions over things she doesn’t get a say in. They don’t want to be around someone that, ironically, doesn’t respect their ability and right to make their own decisions? No shit!

Aimtodobetter · 28/09/2024 10:52

GrandmDEA · 27/09/2024 13:30

It wasn't a small wedding, all her family and friends, many of his colleagues and several of his friends from the UK travelled to go. His reason for not inviting us was "We might be judgemental of his choice". He told one of his brothers but didn't invite either of them.

Your son has quite clearly told you why you don’t have a good relationship with the family unit - he sees you as parents who would be judgemental and unsupportive of his marriage. It doesn’t matter if you have good intentions - if you want to fix the outcome of your behaviour (not seeing your grandchildren) then you need to change the cause. You can only fix the cause by changing how you engage with him, her and the grandchildren - I’d start by being open saying something like “we know we’ve not helped our relationship with you and your family through our attitude and the way we’ve focused on our concerns and how this makes us feel, without understanding your and your wife’s feelings and we want to change that. We may not get it completely right going forward but we genuinely want to change the dynamic and accept that it is up to us to prove this to you guys. If there is any specific suggestions you have that we can change to help with this please let us know.” What will not help will be constantly telling them how well intentioned you are - they probably know that as they are still seeing you, just not as much as you would like.

SerafinasGoose · 28/09/2024 11:12

A PP, too long to quote, from a few pages back. This is the first half of it.

I think you're being given a hard time here, but then again, this is MN, where MIL's are the spawn of the devil.

I'd bet my hat, that not one of the keyboard warrier's on this thread would take their kids to Ukraine tomorrow. And furthermore, if they had adult DC who said they were going, they would urge them not to.

Not inviting parents to a wedding is unforgivable, barring an abusive upbringing.

The first of these three comments is merely childish. I've read plenty of threads on MN on which mothers-in-law have been supported. It also needs to be borne in mind that the usual 'we don't know what we've done' schtick is wearing thin by now. People generally know; the question of whether to remain in denial is the problem many of them are addressing. In doing so, they're often seeking affirmation of their own position and are rarely open to considering the alternative. Added to this is a further problem: a breakdown of relations between families is always the daughters-in-laws' fault. A woman is to blame, despite the fact that men are not so easily brainwashed and sons have autonomy over their own decisions. And even this underlying misogyny can be revealing of why the relationship broke down in the first place.

The 'hating all MiLs' protestations, as above, tend to come from those who are quite rigid in their thinking and unwilling to examine these issues. This point is a nice segue into the statement that 'not inviting parents to a wedding is unforgiveable'. This is a precise example of the kind of attitude I'm talking about. An issue as trivial as a wedding almost never falls into the category of 'unforgivable'. They are not important enough to justify the amount of angst they cause within families, and the statement made by the PP clearly indicates that their offspring should have the style of wedding they deem appropriate: the identikit, stickler-for-tradition, greatly expensive brand of wedding that's become a form of social expectation.

For what? Some couples might prefer to save their money for something less ephemeral and more meaningful. Others prefer something smaller, less conventional and less tedious. For some couples, a big event might be the stuff of nightmares and still others might be trying to navigate difficult family situations to avoid having the whole shebang ruined. In all scenarios, does this really justify an insurmountable family division? I'd say not.

This particular post also made reference to 'abuse' being the only scenario that lets these adult offspring off the hook. This is taking quite a lot upon yourself in judging what other adults are and are not allowed to do at their own family event. Some forms of abuse are subtle. You don't get to qualify that definition on behalf of other people.

This site is desperately in need of more nuance.

Tragicmun · 28/09/2024 11:15

Why did your son move so far away from you in the first place OP?

gorn · 28/09/2024 12:36

GrandmDEA · 27/09/2024 14:56

We never explicitly called her anything. We expressed concern that the relationship may not be built on honest motives, due to her age and back ground , either of those on their own would not have provoked the same questions.
Obviously if a very attractive much younger woman is showing an interest in someone who would generally not be seen as their type or who is clearly much better off financially it is fair to question. We apologised when we were told we were wrong.

"We expressed concern that the relationship may not be built on honest motives, due to her age and back ground" - this is pretty much the grenade the previous poster was talking about. It was poor judgement on so many levels - you didn't know her or anything about her background, and you are basically telling your DS that you do not trust his judgement - both of these things would have been very destructive to future relations. Did you say this before or after the wedding? It is a sad situation and one you could turn around, but you do need to see that a fair bit of work will need to be done on your side. It doesn't sound as though you understand what is going on in Ukraine very well either - most of the damage and risk is in eastern Ukraine. The attacks in Kyiv are higher profile, more reported on in the west, but the situation there is completely different from in eastern Ukraine. It is clearly really important for the mother to ensure her children knows their family and culture. It is worth you asking to see your DS on his own, say you are very sorry and you want to start from zero, please, ask him to explain everything from his point of view and his wife's point of view, and find out their perspective on Ukraine, then promise to reflect on it all.

Elsvieta · 28/09/2024 14:06

"LETS her do it"?!?!

Quite a pattern here of assuming anything you don't like is down to the dastardly DIL and not your son - on all of it, not just the travel. It might be time to face up to the fact that husband and wife may well actually be in total agreement on everything, including how they relate to you - and to do some work on your own internalised misogyny.

Pixiewombat · 28/09/2024 16:01

The more I think about this the more I think the DiL is very brave indeed.

GivingitToGod · 28/09/2024 16:46

RachPelders · 28/09/2024 10:32

We have had some big fall outs over decisions they make

This kind of says it all for me.

It's not your place to have 'big fall outs' over their decisions for their family and dc. It's not a two way argument where you get equal say. You don't get ANY say but you seem to feel differently.

Until you realise this and back off, your relationship is unlikely to improve imo.

This says it all and I talk from experience

AcrossthePond55 · 28/09/2024 16:57

@GrandmDEA

Wondering if you've learnt anything or have given any consideration to the 'opposite viewpoints' in this thread.

Sounds as if your relationship with your son may be hanging in the balance. It may be time to rethink things.

StarSwooshSpangles · 28/09/2024 16:58

The reason why I rub along with my DIL is because I keep my mouth shut and respect boundaries. We will never be close but I know she has told people I am a good MIL . Compared to what her friends put up with 😂 My DIL will always put her mother first , but there is nothing I can do about that as they have an unbreakable bond . I know this is going to sting like hell but I would apologise, recognise that your DIL is a great mother and start again .

Conkersinautumn · 28/09/2024 17:03

You weren't in the loop at the start of his relationship for a reason. Your son is protecting his family from the difficult relationship in his life.

Lippyvip · 28/09/2024 18:58

CrouchingTigerHiddenChocolate · 27/09/2024 13:19

Why not?

They will sleep on the train.

Sounds like jealousy to me, you're upset she is taking them to see her family and not you.

Quite a few people are rude with their comments. As a grandparent myself, of course yoyr going to feel concerned about them travelling to a worn torn country, if she didn't care she wouldn't be a very nice person.
I think it is odd that her family weren't invited to their sons wedding, but times have changed and I suppose it's only like running off to Gretna green.
To me, and this is my opinion, she just sounds like any normal parent wanting to be part of her child's/ grandchild's life.
If she doesn't get in with the daughter in law, that would be an issue in anyone's marriage. Grandparents have rights, legal rights to have contact with the GC, however, this will be another strain to their already fragile relationship.
To be honest I think she'll be buggered if she fights to see her GC or not. If you don't you'll get it throw in her face she didn't bother. And if she does, then she'll be told that's she's interfering in something g hey don't want. ENGLAND has a freedom of speech policy, and no one can talk without being obnoxious or arrogant. I wish you well whatever you decide to do.

ChitterChatter1987 · 28/09/2024 19:01

OP I think based solely on what you've said, you're getting a hard time here.
(And I say that as someone who is no contact with my husbands parents, and they haven't seen our children for 2 years)

UNLESS there is a back story here other than what you're telling us from your son's side of things, I do think your issues sound mostly warranted.

I don't think long haul (especially regular) journeys are fair on young kids, whatever the 'your kids should fit around your life' brigade say... and they certainly shouldn't be visiting dangerous countries.
You are still these children's close blood relative....you are allowed to be concerned for them.

Ivyn · 28/09/2024 19:01

'Grandparents have rights, legal rights to have contact with the GC'

No they don't, except for circumstances where they have been raising their grandchildren or otherwise playing a very significant role in their lives. Which the OP hasn't been doing.

InterIgnis · 28/09/2024 19:23

ChitterChatter1987 · 28/09/2024 19:01

OP I think based solely on what you've said, you're getting a hard time here.
(And I say that as someone who is no contact with my husbands parents, and they haven't seen our children for 2 years)

UNLESS there is a back story here other than what you're telling us from your son's side of things, I do think your issues sound mostly warranted.

I don't think long haul (especially regular) journeys are fair on young kids, whatever the 'your kids should fit around your life' brigade say... and they certainly shouldn't be visiting dangerous countries.
You are still these children's close blood relative....you are allowed to be concerned for them.

She is free to think that a much as she likes, but she doesn’t get a say in it, and they’re not interested in hearing her repeated criticisms of their parenting decisions. Or marital decisions. Or hosting decisions. Or housing decisions. Interfering as she is isn’t going to achieve anything but further estrangement.

So yes, she’s allowed her opinions, but equally they’re allowed to not entertain them, or her. Clearly she doesn’t like the consequences of arguing over things she gets no say in though.

InterIgnis · 28/09/2024 19:26

Lippyvip · 28/09/2024 18:58

Quite a few people are rude with their comments. As a grandparent myself, of course yoyr going to feel concerned about them travelling to a worn torn country, if she didn't care she wouldn't be a very nice person.
I think it is odd that her family weren't invited to their sons wedding, but times have changed and I suppose it's only like running off to Gretna green.
To me, and this is my opinion, she just sounds like any normal parent wanting to be part of her child's/ grandchild's life.
If she doesn't get in with the daughter in law, that would be an issue in anyone's marriage. Grandparents have rights, legal rights to have contact with the GC, however, this will be another strain to their already fragile relationship.
To be honest I think she'll be buggered if she fights to see her GC or not. If you don't you'll get it throw in her face she didn't bother. And if she does, then she'll be told that's she's interfering in something g hey don't want. ENGLAND has a freedom of speech policy, and no one can talk without being obnoxious or arrogant. I wish you well whatever you decide to do.

No, grandparents don’t have those inherent rights.

And that isn’t what freedom of speech means. Freedom of speech protects individuals from government censure, it doesn’t mean that people have to avail themselves to listen to you.

Skybluepinky · 28/09/2024 19:27

U obviously have no idea his u come across no wonder they keep away from u.

Pupinskipops · 28/09/2024 19:33

GrandmDEA · 27/09/2024 13:17

Yes and it Is 24 hours from leaving London to arriving in Kyiv. They fly to Krakow, then get a train to a town on the border then a 12 hour overnight train to Kyiv. Absolutely 24 hours and not fair on the children at all!

That's not your decision to make. You say you've had several big bust ups over this. You clearly didn't get the message after the first one and you persist with your interfering. How do you expect them to respond? As much as you love them, they are not your children and it's not your place to interfere with how you son and DiL parent their children. You'd be better off wishing them a good trip and saying you look forward to hearing all about it when they get back.

dennybev1 · 28/09/2024 19:37

I am shocked at the hostility of some of the responses you are receiving. I'm guessing most of those telling you it's none of your business, etc., are Mums who are not yet grandmothers. They will no doubt feel differently when they have grandchildren.
I, for one, feel very sorry for you. To have your son shut you out of his life like this is so hurtful and unpleasant. To refuse you any access to your grandchildren is spiteful and mean.

If there has been a fallout with your son which led to him not inviting you to his wedding, then you need to repair that relationship I think. Be the bigger person. If you have hurt him/them in some way then apologise, and try to make a fresh start.

If there has been no fallout then I do think you son needs to man up and stand up to his wife. His family is just as important as hers in their children's lives. Do they even see his brothers and their children? Somehow I think you need to have a heart-to-heart with your son and try to get to the bottom of it.

Maybe he could try and imagine what it's like to be in your shoes. The years fly by and one day his own children will be grown up, getting married and having their own kids. I do wish parents would try to understand how much love and how much of a bond we feel for our grandchildren, and how much it hurts to be cut out of their lives.

I wish you well.

caringcarer · 28/09/2024 19:52

Why not ask your DS if you can come to London and take them all out somewhere for the day?

RachPelders · 28/09/2024 20:09

I'm guessing most of those telling you it's none of your business, etc., are Mums who are not yet grandmothers. They will no doubt feel differently when they have grandchildren

I've learned so much on MN that I am storing away for the future. So much about how NOT to act and about how not to be that grandparent or MIL from hell.

I do wish parents would try to understand how much love and how much of a bond we feel for our grandchildren, and how much it hurts to be cut out of their lives

This cuts both ways. I think there are plenty of grandparents who would be wise to think back and remember what it was like raising children. How busy you are, how many worries and concerns of your own you have. And how much you really DON'T need the stress and noise of a background voice bip bip bipping away with constant unasked for advice and opinions on your children and life.

keffie12 · 28/09/2024 20:16

I'm a nana to 5. I'm also a MiL to 3 of my adult youngsters. I have 3 adult sons and 1 adult daughter.

Posts like yours are one of the many reasons I closed my gransnet account.

Judgementaliam, holy than thou and all the other reasons P.I.L's are not in their grandchildrens life etc stand out so well in this post.

What were your own PiL's like with you? How would you have liked it if your inlaws had behaved like you do.

Your vocal opinions are why your relationship is like it is. I can hear you now and it makes me shudder.

My ex deceased MiL was a nightmare but some of the stories I read on MiL's make her seem like a pussy cat.

Fortunately I had a wonderful 2nd MiL who I still miss very much.

It's probably too late with this relationship however inlaws should keep their mouths shut and just grumble to each other as in mom in law and dad in law, between themselves.

You started this with your accusations about why they were together. Just because you apologised doesn't make it right. You set them up to be defensive from the beginning.

I have a good relationship with my DiLs because I keep my mouth shut and I let them live their lives.

They will always be closer to there mom's cos that is how it is. I am close to my daughter and it is very different when I'm with her because that's how the mom/daughter relationship works.

I see all of my grandchildren regularly and I am involved in childcare as well with my eldest son and my DiL children because they live locally.

When I visit my daughter and her family whom I'm in weekly contact with via video call etc. it is very different because she is my daughter.

Incidentally there is a 7 year age gap between my eldest and his wife. 2 of my adult youngsters are with people of other race/country. I'm just glad they are happy and they are in loving good relationships.

I doubt you can save this without some hard soul searching about yourselves.

GhostMum · 28/09/2024 20:20

Sounds like you have a problem with the wife, not the other way around. “she clearly has no respect for our family”? But it is your son who would be responsible for inviting you to their wedding, not her, so why are you judging her? And who are you to “voice your concerns” over her returning to her country with her children? She is their mother. Nobody in the world will be as conscious of their safety as she. You might be uncomfortable based on your lack of understanding and knowledge of the situation and all factors involved, but it is not your place to stick your oar in. No wonder they try to keep their distance if this is what you’re like. Try showing some respect and maybe relationships will improve.

Nannyoggapple · 28/09/2024 20:32

That's very sad.

Can I just say that I understand your heartbreak. I know you want to see your grandchildren.

My mother also stopped me from seeing my grandmother, (my father's mother) for long periods of time.

My mum moved very, very far away from my gran when i was 7, and I remember missing my grandmother really terribly. I thought about her a lot, but I wasn't allowed to see her at all

When I was 18 (11 years later) and I was an adult, I went to see my grandmother myself.

We cried and hugged each other and she said to me "I never forgot you ever". She kept crying and saying to me "I never forgot you". I remember that she cried so much. She ketp crying.

She said to me that she'd been afraid of my mother, and that she didn't know what to do without making the situation worse.

My granny died not long after my visit. So I only got to see her a couple of times when I was 18. Then she died.

I missed out on a lifetime with her. That was an entire relationship ruined.

It's really hard because mothers have all the power.

Children have no power, and grandparents have no power.

I think that they should make more grandparents rights.

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