Women are encouraged to have vaginal births due to…

[Undkonm]

1. cost
2. because women are not treated like men in terms of pain management

I have read (and also strongly believe) that the nhs encourages vaginal births to save money. A consultant has recently come forward to say exactly this. It is appalling and women are still falling for the narrative that vaginal birth is the only real way to give birth.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there are huge risks with all medical intervention such a c section. But I know so many people who have ended up with an emergency c section and it’s been awful for them. In contrast, those I know (including myself) who elected a c section by choice had a peaceful and largely predictable birth.

This toxic narrative that birth is only birth if you give birth vaginally is another abuse of women. I am glad I had the insight and confidence to push for what was best for me. I know other women who desperately wanted a c section but were pushed around and didn’t get to have it elected.

When will this end? I should add that I also strongly believe women who want vaginal births should be absolutely supported but it should be an active choice to do that, not the expected ‘norm.’

Do others agree? Do you have other thoughts on this? To go one step further I think the abuse of women continues when the baby arrives with huge pressure to breast feed. Just leave women alone to make decisions that are right for THEM.

Yes

We've said this chapter and version on here forever

Nothing changes

Because women don't complain enough

We have to remember that a good birth has the potential to be very empowering to the new mother.

A 'good' birth is one where Mother and baby are both physically and emotionally well after the event. So that vaginal birth where forceps were used and the woman will have ongoing issues as a result shouldn't be seen as 'good birth' just because she eventually managed to give birth vaginally
After care should be caring/supportive and should help any woman regardless of the type of birth, navigate those tricky first few days post birth, we know birth probably isn't going to be a pleasant experience for a variety of reasons, including the whole melon out of an orifice that hasn't seen anything wider than a wonky carrot unless we got really lucky, so don't patronise us !

I support women's choice in how they want to have their babies. I had an elective cesarian. I was very lucky in that I had no pain, only slight discomfort afterwards. I had the most amazing experience when birthing my daughter. I vote choice.

This toxic narrative that birth is only birth if you give birth vaginally is another abuse of women

Can you elaborate on where you're hearing this? Because I certainly never heard that from a medical person, this is almost exclusively from other women.

I had two sections and couldn't give a shit if people think it's not a real birth

Parenting is hard enough without that additional guilt to bear

What an interesting read! Good to have the data to back up the hearsay too.

They, and sometimes their babies, died a lot didn’t they?

probably more birth injuries too.

Here's a more up to date study that you may want to consider...

mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/25/1/7

@Loadsapandas They, and sometimes their babies, died a lot didn’t they probably more birth injuries too.

Right. So given how comparatively safe modern childbirth is, it's not exactly an abuse of women is it?

My recovery after an elective section was much worse than my first which was an emergency. I breezed through recovery after the emergency one tbh. It was a bit of a shock to have such a different experience second time round because I had been told elective recovery was always much easier 😬

At the end of the day, vaginal births and elective c sections can have complications and neither are a walk in the park. Women should just be encouraged to make an informed choice and as there are risks with both options, to go with the risks that are most acceptable to them.

Vaginal birth will always be the default as that is what our bodies are designed to do, however if a woman's informed choice is an ELCS then that is honoured now- it just absolutely isn't always the easier option. I am an obstetric anaesthetic and recovery nurse working in theatres and knowing the process of a c section, it was not something I wanted unless medically necessary- I have seen how major it is and didn't want to have that done and then care for a baby immediately afterwards. I was lucky and had 2 vaginal births that were relatively straightforward.

ELCS will never be offered as the default option- we are struggling with the numbers of ELCS requests at the moment in our trust despite having an allocated elective theatre. We are struggling to staff the theatre with scrub nurses and anaesthetic ODPs and nurses, not to mention anaesthetists. It wouldn't be sustainable to offer them by default to everyone.

I don't want this post to sound anti ELCS to anyone either, they are the right choice for so many women and I totally respect that and it's a privilege to be part of their journey.

I find these debates so tedious.

Women should be free to choose to birth/ feed their baby in any of the good enough ways they choose.

That freedom doesn’t include the freedom from fact. Surely, if you are confident in your choice, you should be able not to get defensive when confronted with fact.

Agree wholeheartedly OP. It feels like cost reduction is a big motivation but they can't openly say it.

For instance there's plenty of information readily available about the risks of caesarian, but something like a nice cheap induction? No mention of the risk of hyperstimulation, which won't be properly observed by the midwives who will neglect you until your husband reads the clinical guidance on his phone and points out you're well past the point a doctor should be seeing you and then they'll gaslight you about "what do you need a doctor for, it's a natural process?" but of course it's not because they've stuck a bunch of hormones in you. Anyway if you're articulate enough to argue your way through that you'll finally be properly monitored and hey presto high foetal heart rate and meconium and emergency section anyway. Maybe if you're well overdue they should just offer you that to start with?

Then for your next one you get to listen to the penny pinchers talk about "VBAC" all the time, very carefully not outright saying you should do it because they've now been stopped from doing so as the evidence doesn't support it but funnily enough they still want to talk about it as an option all the time despite your previous experience. Helpful NCT will have statements like "research shows that when a VBAC is successful it has fewer complications than an elective repeat caesarean" which is begging the question! What next? "Research shows when DIY eye surgery with a toothpick is successful it improves your vision"?

Honestly women need to read a lot about all these procedures and the risks and statistics well ahead of time to advocate for themselves because the NHS and the NCT are also thinking about ideology or economics when presenting their options.

I would imagine that you can have more labouring women who have a vaginal birth at the hospital at any one time.
If everyone opted for C-section it wouldn’t be possible to deliver the required level of care.
vag birth is one midwife, csec is a whole surgical team.
I don’t know anyone who would choose major surgery unless the risks of a vaginal birth were higher.

I go get the reasoning but I feel the impact of surgery (even planned) is being minimised. I know loads who had great recovery, although 6 weeks before they can drive etc and needing assistance with loads of stuff etc wasn't appreciated, and yes natural labour can be terrible but so can planned sections. I know a few very ill with infections, my friend ended up.in hospital for 2 weeks due to complications during the surgery, another who had clots etc. No birth is without potential issue and surgery shouldn't be the go to.

"as that is what our bodies are designed to do"

We are not DESIGNED. We have evolved to have heads that are too big.

The cost argument in terms of elective C sections is frustrating, compared to natural without the resources to adequately support and the associated risk of injury to mothers and children (NICU).

Thankfully it stretches to accommodate those big heads or sex would be rubbish 🤣

I’m 5 weeks postpartum with my first. I had an awful pregnancy and a c section was hinted at me, but I decided I wanted to try a natural birth. At 37 weeks, I was hospitalised with high blood pressure (something I had been suffering with from 12 weeks on). After a lot of asking, they induced me 4 days later on the Tuesday. Early hours Thursday morning, I was in theatre having an emergency c section. In all honest, I felt incredible after, but I think that just shows how awful I felt during my pregnancy. I had my DD on the Thursday and was discharged on the Friday. Unfortunately, my BP was still high on the Saturday when the community midwife came round, so I was sent back to hospital and had tests done. Sunday night I was sat at home when I got a call asking me to go in to be admitted with preeclampsia. I spent another 4 nights in hospital. Thankfully, all is well now and my BP is returning back to what it was before I was pregnant.

@shuggles the narrative that unless it’s vaginal it’s not a birth is another stick to beat women with.

I had 2 sections, I don’t take that position personally as I couldn’t give a fuck.

But some women are mentally affected by having the choice of a vaginal birth taken away, and narratives as above just reinforce that ‘they aren’t real women’.

So yes, it causes harm.

It is also better for the baby's immune system and long term health to have vaginal births as they are given protection by the vaginal secretions.

I would genuinely love to see the research that supports this statement. I am in a pick apart research with a fine tooth comb mood, so bring it on

I had two elective C-sections. So peaceful, so wonderful and amazing recoveries.

Also bollocks to the vaginal secretions nonsense. I had group B strep.

Loved my emergency c section, even though I was in a dangerous situation (didn’t know this at the time). The doctors and nurses made it really stress free and there was no pain. The recovery was not long either for me and I barely have a scar. I will never forget the screams of the women giving birth naturally. It sounded horrendous in comparison to my experience. So I tend to agree.

😂