To think we shouldn't habitually lie to children?

[mossylog]

I've got a toddler who wanted some more chips. My mum was staying for dinner and she said "there's none left" to encourage him to eat more vegetables on his plate— there were a bunch left, which my son could have seen for himself if he'd looked carefully. I didn't make a deal of it at the time, but it annoyed me.

Lying to manipulate your child into desired behaviour seems bad to me. Parents who say "the batteries are dead" when they don't children to watch TV, it's just conflict avoidant and eventually erodes trust.

This isn't just about the chips, my mum tells constant inconsequential lies constantly. Pretending she's heard of something you're talking about, or that she's been to a place she hasn't. Never admitting ignorance, always wanting to seem informed. The upshot is, she gets on with every stranger she meets straight away, but I can't trust half the things she says.

YABU: white lies for social convenience are fine, everyone does it, or maybe it's fine when it's done to small children for an easy life.

YANBU: we should model being honest to children and we should avoid bullshitting

I think conflict avoidant must be a buzzword at the moment, it's basically a backlash against the overuse of "gentle" parenting, either a way to either point out where it goes wrong or just straight up bash parents who are trying their best to navigate something very hard.

And yes, there is definitely an issue with being conflict avoidant to the point that you always/only avoid conflict - the whole point of picking your battles isn't to say well let's not have any at all. There are times that you need to be the adult and stand your ground.

But as you say, there should be a balance. It's no fun to constantly be locking horns with a small person who has barely any common sense or reasoning skills, and it just reinforces the idea of butting back IME.

I've never lied to my children. They know that father Christmas and the tooth fairy are folk stories and not real. They also know they can trust me because I will always tell them the truth.

Do we need another label? Can't say I have never lied to my child but try not too but we have done Santa and Easter bunny and read stories where animals talk and other make believe stories, and sometimes if they ask too many times for something I won't spend 20 mins making a reason for no they will be told 'because I said so' which may or not be a lie

But parents and kids can work out life lessons for themselves as they grow

I'm always a bit skeptical when people claim this. You told them honestly that their art looked like scribbles, or that a performance they put in was boring?

Life just isn't as simple as "lying is bad". Lots of social expectations involve lying. Lying can sometimes be the kind option.

I've never thought their art looked like scribbles. I comment on their use of line, or colour, or the subject matter.

I've also never found their performances boring, and again I would talk about their effort, the bits they did well, I would ask them how they felt about it.

I don't lie in life, it's not necessary and I don't believe that it is kind. There's a big difference between thinking something negative and being compelled to say it out loud. You find something else to say, or you phrase it better.

If a friend asks me what I think of a dress and I hate it, I can say:
It's very you! It's so your style and I can tell you love it.
It's not my style but it's right up your street, the colours are pretty
I love the frills/sleeves/colour/fit on you

You don't have to say "I hate it", there's always something else you can say.

So while I'm not going to give a full explanation to a three year old every time, or be obnoxious or pedantic, I also want to be modelling honesty and not constantly be trying to deceive a small child to make my life slightly easier in the moment

So, do you do Santa and the Easter Bunny or not?

Oh man, really?!? That's pretty much my parenting technique, bribery and white lies 😂🙈It's not like in 10 years time he's going to find out there actually was chips left and it'll ruin his life that he was lied to about it. If it saves a tantrum and makes my life a bit easier, i really don't see the issue

If a friend asks me what I think of a dress and I hate it, I can say:
It's very you! It's so your style and I can tell you love it.
It's not my style but it's right up your street, the colours are pretty
I love the frills/sleeves/colour/fit on you
You don't have to say "I hate it", there's always something else you can say.

Do you really think this is better than being honest?! I don't, and I am not even against white lies. I think this is the worst of both worlds because you are making it obvious not only that you personally don't like the garment, but also that you don't like their entire look.

I have a friend who does this and it is the worst. She is so pleased with her diplomatic choice of words, and I have to politely pretend that she hasn't unintentionally told me that a) she thinks I dress badly and b) she thinks I am too stupid to decide her "It's so you!".

In my opinion either a white lie "It's great!" or the truth "Hmm. Not my favourite." would be better.

I didn't generally lie to my child, and always opted for age appropriate truth.

It's a medicine that some people take. There's lots of medicines designed by clever scientists and when you're older we can learn a bit more about them if you like. Remember when Calpol made your sore [insert whatever was sore] feel better? A bit like that.

I promised my daughter I would never lie to her about anything. Now she is a teenager it is proving to be beneficial so I’m glad she absolutely trusts every word I say to her is my view of the truth.

Lying to children is wrong. It’s much easier to say ‘some people believe xxxx’. our children need to trust us.

That’s how it was here, and when I was a child, too. Any big/more expensive present came from us (usually just one, never a ‘pile’) and presents from other family were labelled as such, and the donors thanked.

Relatively little things only in stockings/pillowcases, but that didn’t stop them being super-exciting!

I feel a bit sad to suspect that this year, Gdd1 (9) no longer believes in Father Christmas, though I think she’s sensitive enough not to spoil the magic for the younger two.

I completely agree, I felt the same regarding my son. Not lying doesn't mean going into too much detail, it has to be age appropriate of course.

I think you need to think of it in terms of greater harms - and age appropriateness.

For toddlers, too many chips are harmful as is getting their own way. In my view, the worst kind of conflict avoidance with toddlers is never saying no.

A lie about the chips have run out/I haven't got coins for the supermarket ride won't have life long consequences and it isn't worth risking a toddler meltdown over something they will come to understand as they get older.

I agree. Dc's friend told us he's not doing the sports club at school because he's wearing glasses. His mum's told him they might broke if he does it. The child is sporty and good runner. I suspect it's the fee that is the real reason they didn't sign him up.
To lie it's because of having to wear glasses - that's bad parenting for me.

We've told dc Father Christmas, tooth fairy, etc. are not real from the start. We still 'play' them. He loves it and feels the magic - just like with Spider-Man.
Theres no threatening that someone watches his every move, or telling him to be nice for the old man. And no worrying that some stranger sneaks in your house when you sleep.

Remember having a chat with my nephew when he was about 11 where he said 'i know FC isn't really real, but sometimes I like to pretend he is'. Got me right in the feels!

You think that's bad..my dad used to tell us horrific cautionary tales that only years later I found out he made up. Eg. Every time we crossed the main road: "never run across this road, I saw a little boy get crushed by a truck here years ago" Never happened. I used to cry myself to sleep thinking about that imaginary boy.
I think it was a cultural thing (I'm Irish) but parents used to habitually lie their faces off to children to manipulate them into doing what they wanted them to when I was a kid.
We were told if we didn't behave, the "man" was going to come and take us away. Nobody knew who this man was but we were all terrified of him. Some said "I'm going to give you away to the coal man".
When I was a kid it was the norm to get your ears pierced at 5 or 6. To avoid reluctance at having it done some mothers used to tell their children that they had worms living in their ears and piercing them would kill the worm, otherwise it would grow and grow. It was also commonly said that if you ate too much sugar you'd get worms in your stomach.
Then there was the usual, if you make faces or cross your eyes they can get stuck like that and eating your crusts on your bread would make your hair lovely and curly.
And of course the religious themed ones: tell the truth and shame the devil. You'll go to hell/ purgatory for some fairly minor misdemeanour. And always "God is watching". Or Santy if it was coming up to Christmas.

I know the feeling! Dd1 at coming up to 10 IIRC, told me in very matter of fact tones that she knew FC was me and daddy, so I might as well admit it.

So I did.
When she was in her early 20s she finally told me she’d been dying for me to deny it, so she could go on believing a little bit longer!
I so wish I had! 😰

I think there's being diplomatic, e g. to save someone's feelings, and there's telling a deliberate lie (which is almost never necessary).
Example: some time back an OP said her DS didn't want to go and play with another boy one day after school and was told to "tell the mum he has the dentist". Whereas 100 other posters said, eg. say can we make it another day. So not lying. Can you imagine next day when the mum asks how did it go at the dentist? More lies.
Some people just lie. My NDN is one of them - just makes things up to bolster whatever point he's making. His kids don't believe anything he says.

Same happened to me. I was five!

I agree that lying is sometimes necessary but it’s important to avoid lying just for an easy life and honestly when kids are older than 3 or 4 they can sniff out bullshit. They may not say anything when you lie but they won’t trust you. It also means you are modelling evasiveness. I obviously lie occasionally like everyone but if I can I try to find something to say that is true (eg I like the colours you’ve used in this terrible picture )

Ah man! I was about 5 too. My 11 year old brother decided to spill the beans 😫

I would say I’m fairly strict parent, but gentle parent explaining is all very well when they are older, but to 20 month old, who understands ‘all gone/all done’, but wouldn’t understand “I’m not cooking more, you have to eat your greens”, I’m going to go for the age appropriate response.

when she’s older then I will explain, she has to eat what’s on her plate or there is no more.

When same dd as in my pp was only five, a neighbour (who I never forgave!) told dd that FC was ‘a fairytale’.

She came to me distraught.

Luckily (!) said neighbour had form for some anti social behaviour, including (as dd had witnessed) very loud effing and blinding in public.

So I told dd that Neighbour had probably been so naughty when she was little that FC never came, so no wonder she didn’t believe in him.
It worked! Talk about phew.