To think we shouldn't habitually lie to children?

[mossylog]

I've got a toddler who wanted some more chips. My mum was staying for dinner and she said "there's none left" to encourage him to eat more vegetables on his plate— there were a bunch left, which my son could have seen for himself if he'd looked carefully. I didn't make a deal of it at the time, but it annoyed me.

Lying to manipulate your child into desired behaviour seems bad to me. Parents who say "the batteries are dead" when they don't children to watch TV, it's just conflict avoidant and eventually erodes trust.

This isn't just about the chips, my mum tells constant inconsequential lies constantly. Pretending she's heard of something you're talking about, or that she's been to a place she hasn't. Never admitting ignorance, always wanting to seem informed. The upshot is, she gets on with every stranger she meets straight away, but I can't trust half the things she says.

YABU: white lies for social convenience are fine, everyone does it, or maybe it's fine when it's done to small children for an easy life.

YANBU: we should model being honest to children and we should avoid bullshitting

It's not all or nothing though.

I (and most other parents) probably make really quick decisions all the time about whether to tell a lie to avoid conflict, or to tell the truth. And it's a balance based on the child at that particular moment (tired, already upset about something else, not feeling well etc) and the specific situation.

Would I have lied about the chips? Maybe - if my child had already been disappointed by something else 10 mins before and had had a long day and I could tell they were really tired. That's not really the best time for a constructive lesson about handling disappointment. It's a time for the easy way out.

I think there's a useful distinction here. I don't go around being rude all the time. But I think there's a difference between being diplomatic and being manipulative. I'm not trying to get some ideal behaviour out of a child when I say their finger painting is creative. That seems different to getting into the habit of lying to the kids to get them to eat their vegetables.

I think the word "habitual" is the key bit in my OP. Someone like my mum doesn't even think about the truth, telling white lies is second-nature, and eventually it undermines trust.

@EverybodyWantsTo asks what's wrong with being conflict avoidant... well, nothing a lof the time. I avoid most conflict myself, I don't go around having rows with people. But I don't we should always be trying to placate, to redirect, to excuse, to downplay with the kids. We need to be able to have healthy conversation about stuff we disagree with.

@Completelyjo makes a reasonable point, sometimes it's about not inflaming a situation with a small child whose doesn't have the understanding yet. But on the other hand, they've got to learn "no" or "that's enough" eventually.

I think generally it's better to have a firm boundary and accept an occasional upset than try and avoid all tantrums with lies.

I think you're trying to find trouble where there is none.

No kid that was told as a toddler "there's no more chips" is going to have issues with trust in the future, and quite frankly, I think you're ridiculous to say so. You're putting a level of understanding on a child who, quite frankly, literally knows fuck all at this stage of life.

Your mum telling little lies all the time is annoying AF, I had a boyfriend who used to do that and it drove me insane.

But it's not the same as telling a fib to a toddler.

I've never lied to my 3yo. I find it strange. I am teaching him that it is okay to lie.

Oh I'm all in favour of the odd white lie. Saves pointless argument!

It’s fine to tell a child there are no more chips left. Sometimes the moment doesn’t lend itself to an explanation of why we shouldn’t eat too many chips.

You have other issues with your Mum and it’s reflecting on everything you see her do.

Of course not! But telling silly lies that they will work out is kind if stupid eg “can’t go to the park, it’s closed” or “we have to go because it’s X time” (it isn’t). My kid’s autistic and he questions is and works out there is lying. There’s normally a reason and tbh he should know.

No I don't think being blunt in every situation is the right move either. I get what you're saying, I'm not rude with the truth like that, it's more often the opposite! Sometimes I'll be awake at night and think "why did I say that silly thing to such-and-such, I should have been more straightforward". But that's the thing, I care about the truth so it bothers me if I lie, especially for no good reason.

Social niceties are great, I just don't think we should be completely indifferent to the truth. And for me, my line (which I get isn't everyone else's) is I don't want to be habitually making up silly fibs just to get my child to do what I want.

But of course, I'm not going to be rude and say "I don't want to hear any more about your toy cars". I think we can be polite and tactful without being bullshitters, right?

makes a reasonable point, sometimes it's about not inflaming a situation with a small child whose doesn't have the understanding yet. But on the other hand, they've got to learn "no" or "that's enough" eventually.

I’m not sure your point though, parenting techniques evolve and adapt as children grow and their understanding develops. Most people move to something more “honest” in time. I don’t know a single person who tells their 17 year old that if they eat all their spinach they will be strong like popeye or that a baby sibling happens when a mummy and daddy love each other very much.

You can call it lying but the reality is parenting is knowing what is an age appropriate method and when, and matching this to your child’s maturity level.

My preschooler thinks I go to bed after I close her door at 7pm, saying that conflict resolution needs to be taught and tucking her in while telling her I’m going to stay up late, stuff my face with chocolate and watch tv all night is hardly a beneficial exercise.

I totally agree with you, OP. There’s something about lying to manipulate your child’s behaviour that feels uncomfortable to me.

Personally, I would have said you can have more if you’ve finished what’s on your plate.

Unlike PP have said, I don’t go round like one of those reality TV people who says every inane thing that comes into their head… but generally I am truthful and don’t find lying comes easily to me.

Meanwhile, DD (aged 5) asked me the other day if Santa is real…

And you said???

Man I'm dreading this question. I'm shocking at lying 😅

Maybe it’s what you consider to be a lie. I would say to my DC eating spinach makes their bodies strong. I tell them that mummy has a shower and does some jobs and then goes to bed after they are asleep. I answer any questions about sex and bodies that I’m asked. None of that is untrue, so I actually wouldn’t say you’re lying… obviously I’d give a more detailed and complex answer to an older child. I give the detail that suits their age and stage of development, and don’t usually expand more than this.

I said it’s a magical story we share at Christmas time. She asked about children being good/bad and getting/not getting presents and I said that some people tell the story that way but I don’t think any children are bad and that Santa gives to all children. And then I asked her if she believes Santa is real and she said she does.

Good job momma!!

I lied to my kids when they were young. " The ice cream van plays music when run out of ice cream". " The ride on toy is broken" ( those coin operated things. )

The occasional white lie isn't so bad, but relying on them regularly to manage behaviour is very weak parenting and, as you say, conflict avoidant. Children need to learn to cope with being told 'no', and they won't learn to do that if their parents are too scared of a tantrum to actually set some boundaries.

I'm not a fan of those kind of lies either. They didn't work on me when I was a child and I didn't lie like that to my children.

Dd said the other day she knew the ice cream van that went past had ice cream because it was silent
(To be fair she is 19)

My DP is very much in your camp. He thinks it’s wrong to lie and whilst I wouldn’t go as far as to say he’d never lie to our kids, he certainly wouldn’t casually reach for a lie to make his life easier or to get the desired result. I can’t say it would be something I would instinctively be quite so absolutist about but intellectually I can’t make the case that he’s wrong so I more-so take his approach. I also think my mum is far to quick to lie to our children to get them to do what she wants and that does feel wrong.

A family we knew when our children were all small lied about what meat is. Eg chicken wasn't from those cute chickens at the farm along the road, it was just a silly name people gave it. My robustly vegan son didn't help the lies when aged 5 he told them that sausages were mashed up dead animals

The tooth fairy and Father Christmas are tricky because you don't want to spoil the magic of other children who believe in them.

I think you are in for a shock OP and will cringe at this post when your toddler hits the threenager then fuck it fours years or you have more than one child. Conflict avoidance will be your number one parenting tool. I lie about lots of things - the ice cream van only plays music when it's empty, the fire alarms on the ceilings are intercoms to Father Christmas, the security guards at the supermarket are really police men on the look out for feral misbehaving kids, our old cat who passed away is in heaven having a grand old time. So what.

Some people suck the life and fun out of everything

I lie to my toddler all the time. He doesn’t have the ability to understand an explanation of why there are more chips but he can’t have them. I’d end up sounding like my mum and say “because I said so” which is probably worse than the white lie.

The older he gets the more I’ll be able to explain but it seems needlessly cruel to try and reason with a young child that isn’t old enough to understand.

Thinking about it some more, I think (roughly) there are two kinds of parents: those who parent how they were parented, and those who try not to parent how they were parented. And for me, that means trying not to become a habitual liar.

So while I'm not going to give a full explanation to a three year old every time, or be obnoxious or pedantic, I also want to be modelling honesty and not constantly be trying to deceive a small child to make my life slightly easier in the moment.

Here's a thing to consider: if you lie to your kids to get them to behave, and you keep doing it when they're old enough to see what you're doing, they're going to lie to you more in return. (Science apparently backs this up: Parenting by lying and children’s lying to parents: The moderating role of children’s beliefs - ScienceDirect)

I agree op. I think we shouldn’t habitually lie full stop. Not just with children, in society generally.

There is this class-riddled idea in Britain that lying is equated with being polite. I think integrity and trust are much more important.