To be deflated by the total indifference to harm being normalised on maternity wards

[RedToothBrush]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvl8l5q0xo

This is MN.

And there seems to be a total indifference and acceptance to maternity care being completely substandard in this country?

Why aren't we completely enraged by this on MN?

Why have we become so passive and why have we rolled over with a seeming attitude that we should almost just deal with it and its not worth complaining anymore?

65% of maternity services in england were judged to be failing. 65%

Why are we not putting pressure for this to be a much higher priority.

The cost to the public sector from compensation related to maternity services is astronomical. It makes up 60% of all negligence claims. This is billions of pounds just on compensation.

This doesn't include the billions spend on care as a result of those harms to women and children.

This is something like £8.2 billion in the year 2021/22. ONE YEAR.

We keep talking about cuts and budget blackholes, but this makes no sense. A lack of investiment in adequate services is costing us billions per year. Savings that COULD be made with better care.

Why isn't this a priority, and why isn't there more women on MN standing up and saying this absoleutely isn't ok? There's plenty of threads about immigration or wars or private schools etc all the time. But maternity services? Tumbleweed.

MNHQ has run a campaign on post-natal care in the past and the situation seems to be getting worse not better. Its dreadful.

So yeah.

Here's a thread to shout about how bad it is. Cos I'm really pissed off. No one seems to be listening.

Same as all medical care for women and medical research. We are always pushed to the bottom. Definitely not acceptable.

Because it's the NHS, we're all expected to be grateful and never question anything ever even though if I'd have listened to the Dr in the maternity hospital and gone home, my eldest son would have died 🙄

I’m due my baby next month at Telford and I’m petrified to be honest I really worry about the care or lack of and reading a lot about the failings they have had is quite worrying.

Totally agree.

I said after the birth of my last child that I felt relieved that we were "just" neglected and not outright harmed by their appalling "care".

The problem has almost become too big to tackle, so people just bury their heads in the sand.

Because those in power are very much alright with their private doctors and/or postcode lottery NHS.

I have a pal who is a medical negligence lawyer. Having had a terrible experience of NHS maternity care herself, she now practices exclusively in maternity and birth injuries to mothers and babies. She tells every pregnant woman she knows to go for elective caesarean as she believes that is the safest way to have a baby in this country. Note, she doesn’t say it’s safe, it’s just safer than the alternative.

All the other issues you raised OP are interrelated, they are not problems existing in isolation to one another. Maternity care deemed inadequate is still better than it has been for virtually all women and babies through history. It's failing along with everything else. And yes, I can't understand why there is passive acceptance. Probably because people don't understand the issues and are pacified by political responses.

I'm beyond enraged but I have awful birth trauma and can't cope with engaging with it. And that's 10 years on. That's the issue, right when we go through it we are traumatised and grappling with parenthood and all that goes with it. And I was on heavy drugs that numbed my symptoms for years afterwards. And now I just can't face going back there and wouldn't know if my experience was relevant any more.

But yes, it's horrifying

I think it's a deep cultural problem that runs bs deeper than funding. The whole thing needs dismantling and building back up (like much of the NHS). In my experience alot of midwifery in the uk is basically unscientific woo woo (sorry) With many more mothers older/fatter/complex health issues we need a much more scientific and safer approach to birthing. Many more women should really be under constant care. DRs aren't perfect but they generally take a more cautious approach and I think the tension between midwifery and Drs is a big problem.

My point is that women are particularly passive on this subject. It's just so disappointing because it does make me feel that nothing will change because it's not got that outrage behind it.

I know a number of women who have tried to go into midwifery and found it difficult to get a training place and to be able to afford to train.

It makes absolutely no sense when the lack of staffing is costing us far more both in humanitarian terms and financial terms.

I'm trying here to encourage women to be angry and to complain 'even if it's pointless' because the number of letters that go to MPs on subjects IS counted and does make a difference even if you do think it does.

It's failing along with everything else

I disagree. Yes the NHS is failing - but the issues with maternity care are worse.

Everything to do with women gets less money and less research. Pain is dismissed, women asking for help are fobbed off, long-term injuries are met with a shrug. The political profile of women's issues is low. Even on a site called mumsnet support is on short supply.

It's structural sexism.

It's failing along with everything else

I disagree. Yes the NHS is failing - but the issues with maternity care are worse.

Everything to do with women gets less money and less research. Pain is dismissed, women asking for help are fobbed off, long-term injuries are met with a shrug. The political profile of women's issues is low. Even on a site called mumsnet support is on short supply.

It's structural sexism.

I agree.
It's shocking.
Both my experiences of labour and birth were awful. I have had so many conversations with women I know who had similar. But you're made to feel ungrateful if you complain about the standard of care.
I was in such a state after DS1, I wouldn't have had the balls to complain, and I just wanted to get DS and me out of the hospital and never have to go back. That's all I cared about.
We have to find some way of discussing what's lacking, what goes wrong and why, what we need etc., without being told we should be grateful for a free service. Yes, it's free it the point of use, but we shouldn't so easily disregard the fact that it's often substandard and can leave us with permanent damage.
I can't even imagine the agony of losing a child through the direct failings of maternity services.

OP, I have been enraged since my first traumatic labour (2018) and subsequent birth during the pandemic (2020). I developed Birth PTSD, but even if I hadn't the standard of care was unacceptable.

I'm now part of an organisation called Maternity Voices Partnership and regularly attend meetings at my local maternity hospital to provide input as a service user - the sad thing is that until I began this work I didn't realise that in the background there are plenty of outstanding staff who really are trying every day to make improvements and who are devastated by the CQC findings/Birth Trauma Report/Ockenden etc. Several things have stood out in my work in this area - one obvious one being staffing (major issues with recruitment and training after the Conservatives withdrew the nursing and midwifery bursary - funny how people seem to forget this as it's been a total disaster), another being the fact that it can be hard to make changes within large institutions in the first place due to layers of management, and finally that pregnant women are genuinely sicker than they were even 10 years ago, meaning the risks and costs of maternity care are increasing. Far more pregnant women now are obese (before conception), have high blood pressure, diabetes or pre-existing significant mental health problems (in my area this figure has risen from 5%-27% of mothers booking in since the pandemic). I am not at all stating these facts to point the finger at women but rather to wider issues with society/capitalism and their ramifications.

I actually disagree with some of the posters that this can somehow be explained by "the NHS". Maternity care is genuinely poorer than other services, and I don't think it's entirely explained by money (although this is key), but also by wider long-standing cultural and social attitudes towards women and pregnancy in general. I appreciate this is purely anecdotal but I've personally had great experiences of primary care, NHS mental health care (including inpatient treatment), NHS physio and A&E. But my pregnancies left me deeply concerned, hence my decision to try to improve things on a local level.

For what it's worth, for women pregnant now try not to be too scared - I know so many women who have recently had positive birth experiences and report fantastic care. Be prepared to make your views about how you want to birth clear, but also be prepared that even with "good" maternity care birth can still be dangerous and need interventions. Try to have an advocate with you - on reflection my shy husband wasn't the best and if I were to do it again I would employ a doula or get a friend who was more assertive to be with me during labour. Also remember things like ear plugs, eye masks, heat pads, your own pillow and favourite snacks can make any postnatal stay a tiny bit more comfortable, because this area in particular is poor.

You’re exactly right. And in writing to my mp about it today. Thanks for the reminder

Thanks for this thread OP. As an older woman (who experienced some pretty shit maternity care back in the day) the fact that there's been an actual deterioration is enraging.
There's plenty of money in the NHS it seems if you want to remove the words woman from all maternity care (and elsewhere), upend the social contract and identify women's sex based language as phobic and hostile. But allocate the funding and time to do the hard work of improving the quality of maternity care, standards and ensuring that pregnant women are treated with care, empathy and respect and their babies safely birthed - too much of a challenge.

I was diagnosed with PTSD after the birth of my first son. No-one really understood what I'd been through. I was mentally quite unwell - for about three years. When I fell pregnant with my second, I requested an elective C-Section at three different points in my pregnancy journey. Declined each time. Told that I was a healthy woman, that a vaginal birth was best for me and baby. No weight or consideration at all to my horrific trauma of the first birth and subsequent MH decline.

I am thankful that I will never, ever, ever go through that again. But the price I have paid to bring two babies into the world has been high for me, personally. And all because the experiences I had giving birth, and then post partum, were so, so bad. I was in hospital for two weeks after a theatre delivery for my first, and I look back now and realise just how dismissive and unsupportive the midwives were. One in particular, is etched in my mind. Baby wasn't drinking from the boob, due to his head and jaw being distorted from the ventouse, so latching and trying to suck caused him a lot of pain and he was dehydrated. They kept whipping him away to feed him small bottles of milk and were obviously quite concerned. I hadn't slept at all for about a week, baby was distressed, I had vaginal tears that weren't properly healing and weren't receiving the right aftercare. I lay in bloodied sheets for three days after giving birth until I stopped a passing nurse and asked her to change my bedding, and give me a wash as I couldn't get off the bed or stand up. I was a horrific, butchered mess.

So decided to bottle feed after a week of hell. Was worried sick about baby being dehydrated and screaming, non-stop. A senior midwife came into the room to talk to me about my feeding plans. Husband was also present. We had decided to bottle feed together. She came back with "But you're a healthy mum, with a healthy baby, and you should breastfeed - you certainly don't need this!" And she removed his dummy and put it on the side. He immediately started screeching.

I can't remember what the fuck happened after that. It's a horrid blur. She hadn't read the delivery notes, or the care diaries. She wasn't at all empathetic or personalised in her approach. My husband complained to the person on duty - she said "Yes, we're aware of it, it's something we're trying tot get changed."

Horrific

Who's indiifferent?

This.

Women are voting with their feet - the birth rate is declining in educated, tax-paying families

The other thing I would add, that jumps out at me from my experience, is that it was mostly other women, experienced women, who were dismissive of me and my trauma. There is something so deeply entrenched, in our society, that says because we are women, and our bodies are built for it, we should just shut up and get on with it. End of. No support is necessary because - you are a woman, and you will survive it, as you have no choice. The fallout from the attitude is many many women, spending the early years of their children's lives in a sub-optimal mental state, living with post-natal depression, post-natal anxiety, PTSD, whilst recovering physically and trying to look after a baby/toddler.

I feel sad even just writing this. But societies' attitudes towards women in their pregnancy journeys, and their post-partum journeys, has to change.

It feels like there are such extremes! On one hand women can experience being ignored when they voice concerns, on the other they can have interventions chucked on them to speed up the conveyor belt and free up the bed faster. Despite being low risk with healthy natural birth experience previously, I was offered an immediate induction or C-section for no reason other than to get things going - it was a few days before due date within just 2 hours of hind waters breaking. I ended up turning it down and booked in for induction the next day. Baby decided to come completely naturally (no tears or interventions) via water birth that evening.

I gave birth nearly 20 years ago and the 'care' was so poor then we ended up using all our savings to get an independent midwife. It was worth every penny even then.

There's lots of reasons why women don't complain.

We need to be addressing this as something of a priority. The problem is the NHS is far too defensive.