To be deflated by the total indifference to harm being normalised on maternity wards

[RedToothBrush]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvl8l5q0xo

This is MN.

And there seems to be a total indifference and acceptance to maternity care being completely substandard in this country?

Why aren't we completely enraged by this on MN?

Why have we become so passive and why have we rolled over with a seeming attitude that we should almost just deal with it and its not worth complaining anymore?

65% of maternity services in england were judged to be failing. 65%

Why are we not putting pressure for this to be a much higher priority.

The cost to the public sector from compensation related to maternity services is astronomical. It makes up 60% of all negligence claims. This is billions of pounds just on compensation.

This doesn't include the billions spend on care as a result of those harms to women and children.

This is something like £8.2 billion in the year 2021/22. ONE YEAR.

We keep talking about cuts and budget blackholes, but this makes no sense. A lack of investiment in adequate services is costing us billions per year. Savings that COULD be made with better care.

Why isn't this a priority, and why isn't there more women on MN standing up and saying this absoleutely isn't ok? There's plenty of threads about immigration or wars or private schools etc all the time. But maternity services? Tumbleweed.

MNHQ has run a campaign on post-natal care in the past and the situation seems to be getting worse not better. Its dreadful.

So yeah.

Here's a thread to shout about how bad it is. Cos I'm really pissed off. No one seems to be listening.

The other thing is everytime there is a thread there is a bunch of women who work to say a) there's not a problem despite all the evidence that there is b) a list of reasons why it's impossible to do anything.

It's not impossible. It's just people cant be arsed to come up with solutions.

I agree @RedToothBrush It's easier to bury heads in the sand over this

Yes this is MN so failing maternity wards will at some point in the thread be blamed on the women themselves for 'medicalising' it rather than free birthing and eating their placenta for afters.

To a small extent, I blame TV and Media.

Labour is seen as a punchline in culture. It's expected to be painful, messy and intrusive, so when women complain that their experiences are painful, messy and intrusive, people shrug and say "so what else did you expect?".

But it's unforgivable that those within the service also shrug.

I found out last minute that I was supposed to be on preventative treatment for the pre eclampsia I suffered. I was a high risk pregnancy and it never came up in spite of my raising specific concerns.

I raised concerns about family history of precipitate labour - yet was authorised for daily sweeps at home from 37w. I gave birth in 90m, with significant PPH, including back to back labour to slow things down. A dangerous situation if managed at home.

"Luckily" the pre eclampsia meant I was already in hospital.

I am a nurse ( 10 yrs experience in ICU ) I went to work in Midwifery as a nurse to support ladies needing HDU care pre and post deliver.

I lasted 6 months. It is horrific.

The culture, the toxic atmosphere, the contempt.

I don't think its the midwives on the floor to blame, it is the several layers of extensive management that is prevalent

Last week 5 midwives, all senior, b7 and above, only 1 working clinically, were discussing lack of midwives to look after labouring women, why don't one of them get a pair of bloody gloves on, they all say they jump in when necessary, but they don't!

But the midwives are also worn down by women's demands, get me this, get me that, do this, do that, lack of consideration to other ladies in the wards, children running round, climbing on clean beds!

Im 37 weeks pregnant and this was a depressing read! I think I’d rather just not know what a state it’s in.

Labour is seen as a punchline in culture. It's expected to be painful, messy and intrusive, so when women complain that their experiences are painful, messy and intrusive, people shrug and say "so what else did you expect?".

Yes and of course there’s always the classic, “Well you did choose to have children, so don’t complain…”

I can’t think of any other life choice which means you’re never allowed to complain about poor treatment or conditions ever again. It’s misogyny, frequently internalised misogyny from women who have been badly treated themselves and don’t see why others should suffer the same.

I think partly it’s because it’s such a complex and personal area and people don’t agree on how to make things better.

I agree that maternity care is shocking, but I don’t necessarily agree that birth should be more medicalised, which seems to be the direction that the debate often goes in. I’ve heard several people in “real life” say that all women should just have c-sections.

That wouldn’t be my choice but I don’t have the energy to really engage with that debate. I am definitely outraged though and have been ever since I had my first child in 2015.

I care a lot but after my last delivery, shocking “care”, a pointless and exhausting PALS complaint which ended in a bunch of blatant lies, I just can’t engage with it too much. I expect a lot of women feel the same. It’s not that change isn’t needed and the women coming after us don’t deserve better but those of us who’ve had crap experiences don’t want to keep reliving them. Sorry if you don’t feel that’s acceptable.

This is definitely my case.

I remember realising the failures in my care that had led to the situation, and thinking, "but I'm about to meet my baby". So I shoved those feelings in a box for later.

I didn't tell my mum or MIL about the issues for months, because they both had similar traumatic experiences, and I didn't want THEM to have those worries intrude on meeting their grandson (MIL thanked me for keeping shtum!).

And when you've just about got past it - you're looking after your baby! Who has the time and nerve to face the complaints process?!

This thread is a bit victim blamey. Yes I participated in MN campaigns on the issue. Friends tried to sue the NHS for woeful maternity 'care' found their notes were magically 'lost'.

The Government have had umpteen enquiries already and have done little. The problems are known but there is a total lack of political will. It's not clear campaigning will even resolve any of the issues. I don't think it's women's supposed indifference that's the problem.

The NHS needs more money and more staff overall. I have been a patient in 6 different wards over the last 20 years and maternity was the nicest - although things have got worse everywhere over this time. I don't intend this to be whataboutery, rather an explanation why some people are not enraged in the same specific way or have a wider perspective.

There is more impetus to improve maternity wards than any other wards, this is because healthy people are in maternity wards, who have the capacity to demand and fight and lodge compensation claims. There are also much higher expectations going in - people are expecting a magical experience, you don't get that when someone has a tumour removed. I don't think you can fully separate the horror most people feel the first time they are in hospital from maternity services, which is the first hospital stay in a lot of cases, which is one of the issues.

I would object to money being moved into maternity from anywhere else, the list of issues in the articles are happening everywhere and to allocate resources on something as subjective as patient satisfaction and demand would further penalise those who cannot argue for themselves, the people on dementia wards who don't even get help to eat before their meals are binned, for example.

I would only fight on one specific issue, that staffing levels should not rely on partners/husbands being there to fill in. I suspect a lot of the safety, privacy and dignity concerns come from the constant presence of other people's male partners on the wards. That was the only really horrible thing in maternity compared to elsewhere, but was also something that was asked for and campaigned for by other women thinking only about having their own partner there.

Absolutely. Those who you would expect to be able to best empathise with and support pregnant women would be other women who had had babies. I work in paediatrics and I know Im much better at my job since I had children because I understand the complexities and challenges of having a child better and can be more realistic, I cringe at some of the things I used to say, which were well meaning, but actually a bit stupid.

But I had my female obstetrician say that I didn't need a c section despite my baby being predicted to be 14lbs, 'that it was a natural thing and women were built for this'. Luckily baby was 9lbs, but delivery was still challenging and needed forceps. At 14lbs it could have been dangerous for me and baby. When I was sewn up afterwards by a lovely male registrar, he said that this particular consultant is known for refusing c sections even when clinically needed.

I completely agree with you.

I nearly died and DS spent weeks and weeks in NICU because I was constantly fobbed off by staff.

Please Please avoid St Peters in Surrey, Frimley saved my sons life, choose there wherever possible.

The book Black Box Thinking is a very interesting read - it explains why there are so few aviation incidents and how it's a transparent and communicative industry worldwide vs healthcare systems like the NHS where problems are buried under the rug and nothing is learned from them so same mistakes are repeated, in many cases basic ones that could have been avoided.

She sounds amazing, does she share her work anywhere? Is there some kind of class action that could be taken? The horror stories in here are so numerous.

Because it’s impossible to strike the right balance between safety and non-traumatising with the level of staffing that is available and it’s traumatic for the staff too. I don’t actually know what the answer is.

The ‘Saving Babies Lives’ initiative has led to almost a third of labours being induced and almost 50% of births being by cesarean. Because the tolerance of risk has become so tiny. With the present staffing levels and ward space, induction is almost always going to be a horrible, traumatic experience. And it’s probably not going to be very safe either. The long term consequences of ‘saving babies’ are yet to be fully examined.

It's another thread where the first post nails it.

IMO it's amplified in maternity because if you leave with a healthy baby, you're so fucking relieved, everything else is forgotten.

I’ve had some some mixed experiences around childbirth
Last home birth I had didn’t hit me until a while later

Every MW had been supportive and lovely and pretty pleased to be present at my home

I normally deliver about 41 weeks but had been having on/off contractions and horrendous PGP pain for couple of weeks so decided to ‘help’ with the breast pump (which worked after nearly a week of contractions)

The midwife who came that night couldn’t make it any clearer that she disliked being on call and much preferred a clinical setting

She was dismissive in what she did and tone:
‘you’re only 4cm, nothing is happening yet so I’ll write my notes and go back’ (baby was born 40 minutes later)

Could’ve coped with this as I’m a tough fucker but, post delivery and lay on the sofa, she examined me and said I had a ‘small tear’ that she could stitch but didn’t need it

Aglow in the post birth fog I trusted her proclamation and thought nothing of it until I went to the loo and discovered my perineum was torn completely to my bum

Rang my friend who was a senior MW elsewhere who was horrified and I ended up in hospital a few days later outside the initial window of repair to be told there was nothing to be done

I had to push for a referral (female gynaecologist tried to tell me that if I could still have sex with my husband then it wasn’t too bad!!!!) and finally had surgery when that baby was FIVE YEARS OLD

Hate the dismissive attitude that these risks to women’s health and lives is in a normal scope and yet again we’re put at the (torn) bottom of the pile by dint of our sex

She’s with one of the big firms in West Yorkshire

See this just illustrates my post above. The debate seems to become weirdly simplistic. In my view “maternity care should be so much better” is not the same as “everyone should get a c section” but that seems to be the direction it often goes in.

I hate the 'you didn't die so be grateful' attitude. I've been hounded by someone on here for saying my care was awful and should have been better. Yes I sat on bloody sheets for hours and noone ever gave me a bed bath or even a wipe. I cleaned myself with my babies wet wipes. Aparently I'm entitled. I gave up responding after trying to explain because she just kept on saying it was my fault. Thankfully a few sensible voices were telling her to stop because it was getting ridiculous.

I did write to my MP after I had some therapy to deal with my PND, they directed me to PALs, I said I had already gone through PALs and received a phone call apologising from the ward manager (who was actually really lovely, very apologetic and listened to me, and told me the midwife in question would be dealt with and some departmental training would take place) Once I told the MPs office this, I got a reply saying I have done all I can do and they can't take it any further.

I did go back and explain I was making them aware as a lot of new mums I had spoken to had had similar experiences in my local hospital so it needed looking into, and I got a response telling me there was nothing they could do

Wait until you hear how abused & traumatized women are treated within the mental health services.

Politicians have encouraged us to put the NHS & it's 'heroic angel staff' on a pedestal and above criticism & we can't complain because we are offered better than developing countries so we must be grateful that we receive so much 'for free'

Truth is abuse, neglect and incompetence are rife within the NHS & it's the most vulnerable people - the elderly, the mentally ill & learning disabled & neurodiverse who suffer the worst. Maternity services clearly aren't great but definitely not the worst of NHS services