To be deflated by the total indifference to harm being normalised on maternity wards

[RedToothBrush]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgvl8l5q0xo

This is MN.

And there seems to be a total indifference and acceptance to maternity care being completely substandard in this country?

Why aren't we completely enraged by this on MN?

Why have we become so passive and why have we rolled over with a seeming attitude that we should almost just deal with it and its not worth complaining anymore?

65% of maternity services in england were judged to be failing. 65%

Why are we not putting pressure for this to be a much higher priority.

The cost to the public sector from compensation related to maternity services is astronomical. It makes up 60% of all negligence claims. This is billions of pounds just on compensation.

This doesn't include the billions spend on care as a result of those harms to women and children.

This is something like £8.2 billion in the year 2021/22. ONE YEAR.

We keep talking about cuts and budget blackholes, but this makes no sense. A lack of investiment in adequate services is costing us billions per year. Savings that COULD be made with better care.

Why isn't this a priority, and why isn't there more women on MN standing up and saying this absoleutely isn't ok? There's plenty of threads about immigration or wars or private schools etc all the time. But maternity services? Tumbleweed.

MNHQ has run a campaign on post-natal care in the past and the situation seems to be getting worse not better. Its dreadful.

So yeah.

Here's a thread to shout about how bad it is. Cos I'm really pissed off. No one seems to be listening.

It's because we are women. And most of the decision makers are men. And is women who are being harmed are too busy caring for our kids and elderly relatives, doing the second shift of housework or putting up with abuse at home. Just limping on being paid less than the men and doing twice the work. Complaining about maternity care isn't on our mind because as you observe OP we are gaslight to accept this is how it is and we should be grateful we get 'free' healthcare

Sadly I found that this was the same for employment issues.

Older women who didn't know I was pregnant would make bitchy comments about other women going on mat leave again. An HR woman asked if I was planning to get pregnant, and discussed whether a prospective employee might get pregnant. HR made casual blunders in managing the pregnancy administration.

Men were mostly either too embarrassed to say anything, or kind.

I've just returned from mat leave, and three older men in particular have been very supportive, whilst older women have practically snapped at me that they had it worse, and can I just jump in on this complex issue immediately.

That's disgusting you were treated like that, and the person berating you sounds weird. It's appalling.

Well money talks so I'm for the class action lawsuit (I have no legal training so probably it's not a goer but anyway😁)

The sheets were the least awful bit of it, I'd be up for a lawsuit.

On the other hand I do know an absolutely excellent PTSD/birth trauma psychologist if anyone wants details let me know!

Your pal is completely incorrect in her assertion. A CS is most definitely not always the safer way to birth your baby.

Look at www.rcog.org.uk/for-the-public/browse-our-patient-information/considering-a-caesarean-birth/#:~:text=Once%20you%20have%20had%20a,when%20your%20baby%20is%20born.

Written by those with expert knowledge in Obstetrics.

I appreciate that this is a horrible read, but apart from one awful consultant, I had fantastic maternity care, through 1 very simple and 1 complex pregnancy. Treated respectfully throughout, they really went above and beyond. I did a lot of research and picked my maternity hospital based both on ratings and feedback from others. I paid £100 per night for a private room for second birth, most places offer this and definitely recommend it to help with your recovery if you can afford it.

As I said, she believes this to be the case based on her experience representing women and babies with catastrophic, life-changing injuries.

Absolutely agree with the OP, and glad to see the shortcomings in maternity care being highlighted.

My own experience is that after my traumatic birth 20 years ago. I was basically shut down by being firmly informed that I had a healthy baby and that is all that matters.

@VesperLind well your friend is a fool!

Spinal anaesthesia, catheterised, lay in bed for a min of 6 hours after, major surgery, increased risk of infection, cost of surgery to the NHS, increased risk to baby due to not going through labour.

Well of course her view will be skewed, she is a lawyer specialising in these cases, she will only ever see ladies who's care has not been up to standard! Can you not understand that?

I'm appalled but not surprised by the report Op.
But I fail to see how NHS paying out loads negligence claims helps.
In fact fear of litigation is one of the things putting people off working in maternity services (where the biggest % of claims are).
It's part of a cover up, NDA culture which is making the NHS worse, as well as more expensive for us all.
Plus, your friend is not qualified to 'tell everyone that c-sections are safest.' She encounters a particular sub section of a complex patient group, not generalisable to all birthing women.

"Last week 5 midwives, all senior, b7 and above, only 1 working clinically, were discussing lack of midwives to look after labouring women, why don't one of them get a pair of bloody gloves on, they all say they jump in when necessary, but they don't!

This is what makes me soo angry about the NHS, the attitude of these people on very good salaries - so much waste, arrogance and entitlement.
And that's the staff!
Senior management - even worse.
I have a close friend working in an NHS department in Special Measures, yet their SL staff away day consisted of a stay at a 5 star spa hotel.
Why can't they just meet in the offices that taxpayers are already paying for?!!

I have been really shocked at the sheer level of senior manager roles in maternity, when you compare it to say ICU.
We have a director of midwifery, then an assistant director of midwifery, 3 assistant directors, god knows how many lead midwives, none are clinical, all go on saying they can and do turn their hands to clinical when needed, but there is never any evidence of them doing so!

I don't think there's a single answer to this question. In no particular order:

1. It's cultural - labour and childbirth is "supposed" to be awful, and we're "supposed" to grin and bear it because we get a beautiful baby at the end of it. See also "you chose to have a baby".

2. Although lots of us have unpleasant stories around childbirth, other than in the worst cases, they have a tendency to fade over the years because your attention gets caught up fighting for all the other things your child might need (I'm speaking from the perspective of having neurodivergent DC and the absolute shitshow of care that's available for them).

3. We know the NHS is on its knees. Stories and experiences of dire care in any sector of the NHS are sadly commonplace - maternity, mental health, even cancer care.

4. Misogyny - both internalised and societal. I think misogyny in society is so rife that we unwittingly absorb many of the messages and don't even realise that we've done so. For example, look at the kudos that is attached to a "natural" labour with no pain relief. Women compete for top honours for bearing the most pain with no complaint. I don't know any other sector of healthcare - ie/healthcare that men use - where people have bragging rights for enduring pain. This loops back to point 1) re cultural expectations.

5. Women are fighting SO many battles. We're currently fighting men to stay out of our sports and our bathrooms, FFS. Our safety and our rights aren't assured in so many arenas, and we have a very, very long way to go before we reach any semblance of equality. It's not that no one cares about maternity care, it's just there's a finite supply of energy and time.

I have been lucky. My first son became distressed and was dealt with very quickly. It did require forceps, which was brutal, but he was delivered safely. My second birth went like a dream, but I had a first degree tear, which i really wanted stitched and was told twice it was normal and would heal back together. It didn't.

It sounds really trivial compared to others who receive far worse birth injuries, but my first birth was a 2nd degree episiotomy that was stitcused up and healed so much better. The midwives just dismissed it as normal, but I don't think it is OK to not stitch if therusis a tear, no matter how small in their eyes. Five years on I don't think it is worth raising a comaint and wish I was more insistent at the time. I think if a doctor checked me over they would have stitched it.

If you want to look at another scandal, look at use of Physician Associates. If these end up on maternity wards it will get worse.

All what will happen is another post will be made probably at b7 or b8 labelled safety midwife, or engagement midwife, so another midwife off the floor will be promoted into that slot, not replaced on the ground and another layer of management who will add more documentation to the mix.

Very interesting. Why do you think they don't 'get their gloves on'? Do they just think it's beneath them? I had one really good midwife who was incredibly 'on it'. I think she may have saved my life as it was her who spotted that I had sepsis very early. She told me she was extremely cautious with everything as she'd worked in the UAE where there is, I assume, private healthcare and a massive culture of litigation. I absolutely don't for one minute blame the vast majority of the individual staff but I do think the overall culture of the NHS has become shockingly lacking in care for individuals.

They will say they have other roles to do, staffing, reports, datix, etc the managing of a unit and don't get me wrong, there is a vast amount of management. I also think sometimes they have been "hands off" for such a long time they do lack confidence in doing the actual work, they certainly haven't kept up with the documentation. So no I don't think they thinks its beneath them, I just think they can talk the talk and that is why they're all paid far more than the staff on the floor!

This. When I tell other women IRL about my shocking experience giving birth on the NHS they just kind of shrug and say oh well it's understaffed, underfunded, they are doing their best, at least your baby was fine etc. I'll never understand the general level of tolerance people in the UK have towards sub standard healthcare, and the reluctance to criticise the NHS (other than 'it needs more funding' - no, it doesn't, it needs massive reform). I also went for an elective c section as according to my many friends that are doctors in the NHS that was the least dangerous option.

You would think it was less controversial to say - why can't we get the basic bits right? Like being clean and well fed and taken to the toilet at the right time? If we could do that it would be a start.

@Klingfilm exactly- having to lie in a pool of your own blood and try to clean it up yourself after major surgery, being denied painkillers because staff are too busy to answer buzzers for hours on end or it's 'not their job' - is unacceptable regardless of staff shortages and shouldn't be tolerated, not that the more serious failings in care should be either but as you say they don't even try to fix the easy stuff. It's like being in a third world country despite paying ridiculous amounts of tax for the privilege.

We've been talking about poor maternity care on MN since before I joined a good 15 years ago. It's bloody tiring saying the same thing over and over.

There was also an article in the Times today about women having gynaecological procedures without anaesthetic.

It is outrageous and all seems to stem from some sort of Old Testament viewpoint that women are "unclean" and shouldn't be having sex anyway - even to have babies.

Not offering anaesthetic is no doubt because (a) it's cheaper and (b) the staff don't need to hang around as long. However, it's not just women's "bits" - they also try it on with things like an endoscopy.

We wouldn't expect someone to have a tooth out without having an injection first - but are supposed to endure pain for other things and especially women.

Many women have that having vaginal births. And having emergency c-sections.

And the cost to the NHS shouldn't even be a consideration - most women having babies are young and fit and have never cost the NHS much otherwise - before (or in my case, since - I had a vaginal birth but it could have easily got very nasty).