Why is Kamala referred to as a Black Woman?

[Vior]

Watched a doc on iplayer and it struck me that many commentators referred to Kamala as a black woman. It’s not just sloppiness as some of the black, democrat women participating did similar.

It intrigues me. Especially as a woman with a half Indian daughter. I think I would be pretty surprised if DD referred to herself as purely English or purely Indian. She can pass for both depending on tan.

I know the US has a much different view on race and assume it is based on that. Genuinely interested. Not rage baiting. Have googled the question and no answer has really emerged.

This is such a thorny subject I feel, for clarity but also for my own safety, the need to start by pointing out that I am myself what we in the UK call mixed-race. But I spent the first half of my life in North America, various bits, before coming to the UK.

So, let's start with some basic facts:
When Barack Obama first became a presidential candidate, our UK newspapers all referred to him as "mixed-race." Only when he made it clear he identified as black, or Black, did the UK papers switch. It took about two weeks.

With Meghan Markle, there was also a bit of back-and-forth, but it was much shorter, possibly because she made her own view clear quickly. What weirded me out a bit at first is that not only does she straighten her hair but she clearly (look at pictures of her over time) uses skin-lightening cosmetics and may even have had a nose job -- and why shouldn't she? In Hollywood I bet that was a survival tactic.

Kamala Harris's father is Jamaican and always as far as I know identified as black, and she attended a historically black university, Howard. However, looking at photographs, he himself clearly had some non-black background, as most North and South American origin blacks do, owing to slavery and the resulting sexual abuse of female slaves by white slaveowners.

Vanessa Williams was announced as the first "black" Miss USA winner in 1984. She has blue eyes, which are recessive even among white people.

My personal view, based on my own experience, is that we have to go by how people self-identify. But there are some complications, again, between the US and the UK. It is in my experience true that in the UK we are more likely to use the term "mixed-race' where we Americans assume "black." (I use we in both cases because I lived in both places!)

Here in the UK I have a good friend from the subcontinent, Sri Lanka to be clear, who refers to himself as "black" because he's very dark-skinned. But in North America "black" definitely means of African ancestry. And really, the subcontinent seems to me where the question really arises: what is race? is it skin colour or what? Because if your ancestry from the southern bits, you will tend to be much darker; if you're from the north, you tend to be much lighter, owing to the fact that northern India was the home of the original Aryan "race." (Google it!)

Americans haven't yet looked at Kamala Harris's other side because there aren't as many south Asians in North America as in the UK, so they don't really have a mental category. But look at the tangle they still sometimes get into over the definition of "Hispanic": most forms there now offer categories like "Hispanic White" "Hispanic Black" "Hispanic other". In fact, official US census forms do not offer a specific category for "south Asian" but do not only for "East Asian" but in fact for subcategories such as Hmong, etc etc.

In short, I have no answers. But like OP, I think it's a valid point of discussion, as long as no one around the table starts getting upset. Like other PP, I wish I didn't constantly confront this question on forms, but I'd be glad to have more discussion over my dinner table. Then again, I got quite upset recently when some of my dinner guests said that Middle Easterners are not white my reactions was, Arabs are clearly not Anglo-Saxon but they are clearly white? Do Brits think the only kind of "white" there is is Anglo-Saxon? I also get a bit worked up when filling in forms for my children they are even more white than I and basically look white, but, still, they're my children and people in the UK, though not quite sure and usually polite, can definitely tell I'm not... Anglo-Saxon. I don't blame anyone for discussing it, though: I'm glad we're discussing it.

But aren’t we all just bickering saying what is right in our circle/minds is the only right answer. To debate caucasoid vs negroid is a made up discussion to me (a person who studied biology at University). Given there is no such thing really as race. It is entirely a human construct. Obviously other people see really value in debating this.

She uses it to describe herself as presumably she thinks it will get her more votes from the black Americans. She needs every vote she can get her hands on. If people think Biden was bad, they’ve seen nothing yet. Awful woman.

And Trump? Oh, wait, you only want to have a go at his opponents. 🤔

@DjBloke what? I am a woman and a feminist. It's not sexist to call a mixed race woman black. How odd.

I live in the US. You don’t know anything about the contested history of race in this country.

You mean black like the other 28 out of 30 in their classes at school that will make them acutely aware? And one of them is so fair with blue eyes you wouldn't know his mum was black

This is so weird. She is black! My friends of mixed heritage will call themselves black but never white. As even mixed is seen as black. Because that’s how society treats you.

Are you ok? If you're mixed race then you're mixed race. You can't pick and choose. Everyone knows that. I can't pick and choose which race I want to be. I'm two different races.

Exactly.

What is wrong with people?

She IS a black woman.

Exactly. As an American if I see any non-white person, regardless of whether they're Mexican or Asian or native American I just call them black. It's just easier that way.

In the history of race and its invention in the 19th century, white was seen as pure and the default and invisible at the same time.

Blackness was seen as ‘contamination’ and once there was some other ethnicity in their genetics, that person was no longer white.

A few hundred years later and this has been subverted so that women of colour or black women, can be proud of their heritage and ‘own’ that black part of themselves.

And it is much harder to identify as ‘white’ if you have any black ancestry. White people will not class you as white. And whiteness is not something to be identified with, as it’s seen as invisible. Race is also visual and is ‘seen’.

Also blackness isn’t a specific country or culture, it’s a culmination of many histories and it’s at best naive and at worst racist, to start questioning a black women’s ‘blackness’. She has black ancestry, she is black. Asking for purity of blackness is very bizarre.

Oh, and Kamala Harris, mixed-race, does not look black to me, mixed-race. But then I have no Indian blood. It does seem to be our eye catches on what's not familiar. She has dark hair and what my youngest DC used to cheerfully call "toasted" skin, but not clearly dark skin, just deep olive. To me she looks more Indian and could quite possibly have been a darker Spanish person, say of course I've never seen her in person, but then again, I can tell you from experience the white-balance on most cameras, including your phone cameras, typically will make "toasted" skin look darker, not lighter, because the CAMERA default is white is whiter than white. It's not just our eyes and brains, it's everything -- our cameras!

-- EDITED to remove the recurring inexplicable long strikeout lines

Someone will be along soon to roast you for this 😜

I often wonder the same thing OP. I am mixed race (50% of one race, 50% another) and have always just identified as mixed race because that’s what I am. I feel that if I said I was only one of those races then I’d be dismissing the other half of my heritage. It doesn’t bother me what others refer to themselves though, each to their own!

I find that if I’m in a dominant white country, no one acknowledges my white ethnicity, it’s all about the ‘other’ one…other in quotes on purpose (I often have to use ‘other’ on forms…nothing says othering like having to tick ‘other’ 🤪 I would prefer ‘not listed ethnicity’ or something).

What do people consider Nikki Haley to be ?

she is not white by ANY logical version
and yet her race was not pored over

Because her name sounds white and she also looks white. She became a Christian, as well, which furthers her ‘whiteness’ in the eyes of many (we’re talking about Conservative America here). Her ethnicity therefore becomes a non-issue in the eyes of the media I suppose. As for the average person on the street, people don’t wonder if someone is anything other than what they look like, unless told otherwise.

What difficult to understand is your point is incoherent. So what if there’s no “gene” that “codes” for “race”. Catergories aren’t only defined by singular genes. Race is a social category and Kamala is a black woman, an Indian woman and she is also a woman of mixed race.

No, I just couldn't think that he had anything about him that people might like to be honest. You inferred something that wasn't there.

Leaving aside your sarcasm, yes, the notion of ‘race’ only appeared in the English language in the late 16th century, at a similar time hereditary enslavement of people (on a racialised basis) was legally introduced in British colonial America.

I’d question the Old Testament being ‘evidence’ of anything, especially given how many editions and translations there are. But, if you claim ‘race’ (as in Black, White etc) is mentioned in the Old Testament, perhaps you could point to where.

Interesting question. Despite the close historical ties to the West Indies and African and Indian continents there are still problems with race identity in politics and society in the UK. I do think the US is a far more volatile political environment and that racial identity has a far bigger role in political affiliation than the UK. Kamala Harris was brought up mostly by her mother and her side of the family so I suspect is going to more strongly identify with that side of her heritage. I would pose the question are we honest enough about how much race plays a role in our politics ?

I’m actually ok, but thank you. The question is why you feel you have the right to tell the likes of Barack Obama that he is not black when he describes himself as a black man. The reality is that most black Americans are not 100% black due to their history. At what point do you decree they may describe themselves as black? If not 50%, how about 1/4? Or perhaps an 1/8th?

I'm mixed race. I'm half one race and half another. If you're 1/4 black then you're a 1/4 black. That's still mixed race. Barack Obama is mixed race and there's nothing wrong with embracing both sides of his family.

So none of us are allowed to claim a community or an identity? We all just have to state what proportion we are of different things? Should we all get 24 and me? And say I find out I’m only 98% white. Can I not call myself white? do I have to say I’m 98% white and 2% Jew? Are these the rules according to @Littlegirll ?