To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

For breach of the statutory EHCP timescales, pre-action letters via SOSSEN are free.

Not really, it’s a human right under ECHR to ‘not be denied an education’.

Anyway nothing wrong with mummy and daddy spending their money on an education for their children rather than holidays and cars, it produces a well educated adult to hopefully join the ranks of the 47% U.K. net tax payers and saves the tax payer a good chunk of money in the process.

All 12 of them, thanks for asking. And 4 A levels. And a degree, and a Masters.
State school educated too, imagine that.

“All 12 of them, thanks for asking. And 4 A levels. And a degree, and a Masters.
State school educated too, imagine that.”

@Lookslikemeemaw - so why the massive chip on your shoulder then and all the unnecessary sneering, when clearly you can read the underlying law and legal notes, given your qualifications? Please explain it. If you have the ability to critically analyse, then surely you can understand the human rights law implications. Surely you can also deduce that for a party championing the Human Rights Act and trying to comply with other international laws, quite topical right now, coming up with a tax policy that breaches the human rights of children in their own country is completely inconsistent and hypocritical?

The thing is, that whole process is immensely time consuming, confusing and pretty inaccessible for any parent who is not educated themselves to a pretty high degree. I'm a SP, working full time (as a teacher ironically) and I simply couldn't manage that level of admin process at home after work. When my kids failed to cope at state secondary in the end the path of least resistance was a local, v small indie. I couldn't have their EBSA going on for months and months I needed it to stop. So regardless of what the law says "should" be happening, if it's not, in practice, and it can be shown that therefore kids like mine are using Private out of necessity, that would stymie the "it's a taxable luxury" argument. In my view anyway.

You choosing to go independent rather than pursue an EHCP &/or s19 provision was, obviously, your choice.

My replies were in response to a post saying the EHCP timescales weren’t being adhered to and then you can get a get pre-action letter fairly reasonably from SOSSEN. Parents don’t have to accept a breach of the timescales and SOSSEN’s letters are free, not just fairly reasonably priced.

JR really isn’t as time consuming or inaccessible as many parents believe. SOSSEN will help parents through the pre-action letter stage.

As someone who supports parents of disabled children, I am more than aware there are some parents who, for a multitude of complex reasons, can’t or don’t feel able to advocate. Sadly, DC whose parents can advocate for them get better support. It shouldn’t be that way, but isn’t going to change in the foreseeable future. This is why I am passionate about parents receiving support. Parents should be supported to enforce their DC’s rights.

perhaps that it’s that I just don’t care? After years of working in education I am incredibly passionate about widening participation and THAT should be a human right. Not tax breaks for the wealthiest ( and my household income IS in the top 1% so it’s not an envy thing).
I know that having a private school
system inaccessible to all but the very well off is not a good thing for any country. But, it exists.
Private school parents need to re-direct their anger tithe schools who have put their fees up by so much that they are stretched to pay them. How much has YOUR school increased fees since your kids started? Because I know many people using private schools and their fees have rises by 5-10% for years now.
THAT’s why people are being priced out - not because tax breaks are going.

You can’t afford it? Don’t pay it.

Human right? Don’t make me laugh.

@Lookslikemeemaw - my DC go to state school. Wider family doing international jobs have used private schools for consistency for their DCs. I do not ask how much their fees go up.
You will find that a lot of people on these threads have some kids in state and some kids in private schools, for particular reasons.

These are not “tax breaks” whatsoever. That is pure and simple gaslighting.
Other countries do not charge VAT on education, there is a reason for it. The only tax break was by virtue of the legal structure of being incorporated as a charity in the first place - which means there is no taxation on profits or donations. Once we allow the rhetoric of judging what charities are acceptable or not, we are in very dangerous territory. The powers to be have decided these schools should not have charitable status, but they cannot actually revoke the charitable status so instead they have devised a disingenuous VAT which will have all sorts of unintended consequences. Particularly for smaller independent schools that were picking up the children who could not cope in state schools.

Other countries do not seem to have an issue with private schools in the way we do. That is usually because their state system works quite well for most children.
Penalising thousands of children in the interest of dogma (and a very narrow minded and dangerous one as such) is not a good move and it is likely to be a breach of human rights and so a likely further embarrassment for the current Government. Perhaps they don’t care because all along the intention was just do to a bit of damage and wreak some havoc in the independent sector. However, some children and families will really suffer and that is unacceptable.

This VAT wouldn’t do anything for the British class system. On the contrary, the elitism at the top level will double down as a result of the creating of an us and them. It will become even more of a status system and club to go to an independent school at the top level. So there is no better way of encouraging a free mason type club than illegal and anomalous taxation.

Indeed. VAT will mean the schools which for most of them will remain charities will be able to show their public benefit requirements in a lesser way as they will have fewer resources so can cut bursaries for the less well off, making the schools for those who are better off which is hardly Labour's aim.

The argument that Labour has basically picked on the disabled and not chosen to impose VAT on all education including university fees might well win. we shall see. I hope so. Parents will be getting bills for January now and the courts will be closing for Christmas soon and I don't think the court claim has even been issued yet so time is getting tight.

‘This VAT wouldn’t do anything for the British class system.’

I’ve never understood your class system, and care very little about it. I don’t care how VAT does or does not affect this antiquated system but I do care about widening participation in higher education for able, bright children from lower socio-economic backgrounds.
Use private schools if that’s what you want, but they aren’t charities and should not be given tax breaks as such.

They aren't given tax breaks. It has nothing to do with class, it is a point of principle across Europe that education is zero rated.
Indy schools already pay VAT, this is a tax on parents

A business that provides a service to the wealthiest families but claims ‘charity’ status in order to avoid business rates is getting a tax break.
Unfortunately the Charity Commission wasn’t brave enough to stand up to this bullshit the last time it was raised and properly define what really constituted ‘charity’ when it came to to private schools. Or perhaps it just had too many people working for them who are from these privileged backgrounds.

No it isn't unless you are getting tax breaks on fruit + veg etc.
Charity status has nothing to do with avoiding business rates, churches + universities are same classification.
If you want to tax education then do it fairly ie private nurseries + universities.
Making UK the only country in EU to tax education is hardly anything to be proud of.

“but I do care about widening participation in higher education for able, bright children from lower socio-economic backgrounds.”

Well in many European countries there is less of a concept of “elite unis” and getting in is automatic as long as you pass your baccalaureate and what is more, there are no university fees and most unis are of a good standard to guarantee a proper job and well, students live at home and work part time! If you are passionate about uni participation, do something along those lines.

Private schools have nothing to do with the elitism in the uni sector and the branding in the Russell Group to sell to the highest international fee paying students either. That is all on a past Labour Government for introducing uni fees in the first place. Blame Tony Blair. I was in the very first batch to have to pay it and like many others went on protests, including for the rent rises they introduced whilst I was at uni.

‘Well in many European countries there is less of a concept of “elite unis” and getting in is automatic as long as you pass your baccalaureate and what is more, there are no university fees and most unis are of a good standard to guarantee a proper job and well, students live at home and work part time! ’

One - that’s on a NOT true everywhere and Two - it’s something to aspire to… we want/need an educated population…

“Two - it’s something to aspire to… we want/need an educated population…”

so why would you penalise private schools? Especially ones taking children with SEND and turning them into functional adults who pay taxes vs failing them totally in the state system- which is precisely why some parents have had to fork out for private schools in the first place.

You are either anti elitism full stop or you are a hypocrite. You can’t have it both ways. A student going to an elite uni has better job prospects and future earning potential than one going to a poorer performing uni, on average. Yet they are both expected to pay the same fees. That’s not fair, why don’t the elite uni students pay VAT?!

What’s this now? Forcing schools to close is going to ‘widen participation’ in education. Excellent news. Drop the legal challenges immediately.

‘What’s this now? Forcing schools to close is going to ‘widen participation’ in education. Excellent news.’

I can’t tell if this is parody or not.

Of course it is. How is forcing closures of specialist SEN schools/ kids out of schools in GCSE + Alevel years going to widen participation.
Have you looked at their proposals for making it harder for schools to exclude pupils, whilst at the same time, forcing schools to keep SEN provision in house with hardly any extra funding?

Yes, I’m having that problem myself.

Widening participation is not about giving wealthy and privileged privately educated children MORE opportunities than they already have. FFS. Or even state educated ones.
It’s about encouraging and giving opportunities for higher education and training for the poorest kids in our country whose personal circumstances put them at a disadvantage when pursing higher education action.
You know, the young carers, the children who need to go to work to help the family instead, the children who don’t have the time or space at home to be able to study, who don’t have the encouragement at home, who parents perhaps don’t have the resources to give them many extra curriculars, or parents who’s level of education makes it difficult for them to help their children study, The children who are struggling to focus because their homes aren’t warm enough, they don’t have enough to eat, or - through absolutely no fault of their own- live in chaotic circumstances.
Those kids, the bright children who don’t see further education as an option.

But attacking indy schools doesn't impact these kids. Even if you got rid of every indy school you wouldn't improve outcomes for these kids. You are conflating 2 different things.

I get what you’re saying, closing schools will give disadvantaged children education opportunities. It’s just I’m not sure if you’re joking as it makes absolutely no sense.

wise. Up. The 2 things are completely unconnected. I was trying to explain to some of the numpties on here what widening participation means. That’s all.
Posh schools shutting because they don’t have enough parents willing to be gouged for 10’s of thousands of pounds each year and can’t adapt in any way to make their fees lower has zero to do with getting more lower income children into higher education.

If your ‘prep’ school closes then send your kids to one of the many, many undersubscribed state primary schools. If you can’t afford senior school fees - send your kids to a state secondary. Cut your cloth etc.

Unconnected? Wow yes I see that now, closing schools won’t actually improve education. Seems so obvious doesn’t it @Lookslikemeemaw ? Almost like the opposite is true.

Generally when people tie themselves in such mental gymnastic knots attempting to justify a policy such as this, it suggests that the policy is unjustifiable. The only conclusion is that the policy is motivated by spite.