To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

How can it be long overdue when prior to Brexit it was illegal? We will now be only country in Europe to tax education. Do you think the rest of Europe is wrong to zero rate education as matter of principle?
Do you think it's overdue to turf out kids with SEN into state schools where SEN system is in chaos and bankrupting councils?

@Lookslikemeemaw - if they lose in court, they will have to retract it. So whoever advised them to go ahead or advised them to go ahead despite legal advice to the contrary, well, well, well…

How can it be long overdue when prior to Brexit it was illegal?

Weirdly, as a remainer, I wondered what the Brexit benefits would be.

You think turfing kids out of schools in which they are settled and happy, many in GCSE + ALevel years, is a benefit? That's says a lot about you.

Well it fits in with all the other benefits of Brexit though. Reduced trade, loss of skilled workers. I think as long as everyone benefits equally, it's a triumph.

In July 2015, Greece introduced VAT on private school fees as part of a series of measures aimed at helping to address the country’s financial crisis. VAT at 23% was added to Greek private school fees, which accounted at the time for around 7% of the total pupil population.

The consequences were dire – with the tax disproportionately burdening lower- and middle-income families, an estimated 20,000 pupils were pushed to state schools, which were neither prepared nor equipped to deal with such an inflow of children. The result was increased class sizes, strained resources, and widespread disruption across the country.

The comparison to current UK situation is becoming more and more alike. 1000s parents being told 0 spaces available and kids being withdrawn in GCSE + Alevel years facing possibility of having to start from scratch as subjects/exam boards aren't available in the allocated state schools.

You mean as long as everyone suffers?
Or is your passive aggressive comment because you think I voted Leave? FFS people can disagree with Labour without being a right winger/Leave votes you know.

@SerendipityJane you think these are a benefit ie kids being left with no school places? These are a tiny number of examples of parents being told 0 places available.
This is a car crash of a policy and at end of the day it is kids who are being impacted

I don’t think your screenshots prove what you think they do.

The first email appears to be from one specific school saying they don’t have spaces.

The second email names a school with a space and provides travel options.

The third, similar to the first, just says there’s no spaces at the preferred schools, not no spaces at all.

The fourth is advising that it would not be a good idea to transfer schools in year 11, not saying it’s impossible. VAT has been known about for a long time, and if a parent can’t afford the VAT for two months (even if it means getting in debt) then they should have changed schools before year 11.
Get into debt for two terms of VAT and pay it off with the money saved from going state for post 16.

The final one is a lot closer to proving your point, I’ll give you that.

Love, they aren’t going to lose. Pay the tax or use state schools like the majority of people in the country. If you can’t afford private school, then don’t pay for it.
Cut your cloth accordingly, isn’t that the mantra when it comes to WC people worrying how they’ll heat their homes, feed their kids decent food, and still have money to have the odd luxury?
Well, same goes for the wealthy.
And quite frankly, anyone bleating that they can’t afford another 20% on top of the £20/30/40k plus that they’re paying to have their children privately educated need to give their heads a good wobble and question why on gods green earth they’ve been conned into paying SO much to these businesses for something that should be free. IMHO.

Nah. There are plenty of school places.
our child population is dropping. Our city is one of many merging primary schools, and redrawing secondary boundaries as they will need 100s less places in the next few years.
But of course private parents scaremongering are taking screenshots of oversubscribed schools and saying ‘Look, no places!’ While there will be several others in the district with plenty of places.

No, in secondary we are still seeing bulge years work through. Numbers don't start falling until 2029

These screenshot are a tiny % of no places. There are 100s of others.
You can deny its happening but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
There are also lots of examples where LAs are having to pay for taxis as no places locally.

What income do you class as wealthy?
90k ie salary of an MP?
60K?
50K?
40K?
Or do you assume people using indy school are on 100K+?

I don’t assume anything, it’s irrelevant- if you can’t afford private schools fees, don’t pay them. If you can’t afford it on £50k then don’t use them, if you can’t afford it on £100k then don’t use them. Simples.

Wealthy don’t think they’re wealthy though - the top 10% of earners in the U.K. don’t ‘feel’ well off apparently.
It’s all context. I grew up poor, but am now top 5% earner. DP also WC, now top 1% -
we feel very well off. I have friends with similar household incomes who are from money who DON’T think they’re wealthy at all.
that top 1% starts at around £180k salary but goes up to millions… but anyone earning £180k thinking they aren’t well off are delusional. Even if they don’t feel like they can afford private school fees…

I genuinely can’t understand why you are so pro this policy, what is the advantage of it? Long term it just reduces education choice and costs the tax payer more, how is this a good thing? Your motivation comes across as purely an irrational spite thing against these children.

@Lookslikemeemaw - you are not answering the question. If the Secretary of State loses in court on Human Rights grounds and the policy is a breach, what do you think they should do? Breach the Human Rights Act? Do you actually think they should do this? Really? A Labour Party? It would certainly be the biggest hypocrisy of them all.

This thread is just about the court case and what advice they will have been given and do not actually even need, as their leader is an expert in the Human Rights Act and knew all along, full well, there is a material risk they may lose on human rights grounds.

However, if there really are a significant number of Labour supporters who hate private schools so much that they would rather sacrifice the importance of the human rights act, at all cost - then I really do not think there is any hope for this country, whatsoever.

Somehow I don't think you're going to get good-faith engagement on complex issues of law, policy and ethics with anyone who unironically ends their post with "simples"! (with an s😱)

Income and wealth are completely different things though. As you say you only need a salary of about £180k to be in the top 1% of earners but you need assets of £3.6 million to be in the top 1% of wealthiest households.

An income of £180k by itself would barely be enough to get a mortgage on the average property price in London.

But for Sen if you take a step back in the process it’s not the vat that’s denying a child an education it’s the fact that the Sen system isn’t working well and some parents understandably bypass the Sen system by paying for independent. If those parents can’t afford vat then they still have the option of what all other Sen parents have to do, request an ehc needs assessment, potentially appeal to tribunal at various points, if a particular independent school is truly the only school that can meet needs it will get named in the ehcp the la will pay the full fees not just the vat. Obviously you and me know this process is not straightforward and the reality is a parent will spend years fighting through tribunals to get to the end point with damage to the child in the process, which is why some parents go for funding the independent option themselves. How can it be a breach of human rights if there is another legal option available to technically get to the same result.

@Morph22010 - the State has to meet a child’s SEND needs, regardless of EHCP, even in a state school. It is needs based, rather than paper evidence based? So I really cannot see them being able to use the EHCP get out as a complete defence. If they actually wanted this policy to go through, they would have surely approached it completely differently. Certainly not introduced it half way through the school year, applied it to tons of children with SEND (regardless of EHCP) etc. They would have worked with the independent sector etc etc.

It almost looks like they wanted to lose in court and knew full well they were going to lose in court. Unless it is sheer incompetence, which is perhaps even more worrying.

Ideologically & politically, we also need to remember that freedom of choice to educate your own children, as you believe, without state interference and concepts of free speech are linked - and we have Elon Musk and Trump to contend with now. Musk has set up his own schools. It is worth bearing in mind.

If I had to guess, I would say as to the principal litigation by the ISC, they have probably sent an initial letter or whatever that first process is in judicial review cases, to the Government's lawyers who then respond and then litigation starts - www.law.com/international-edition/2024/11/01/kingsley-napley-and-lord-pannick-spearhead-private-schools-challenge-to-government-vat-policy/?slreturn=2024112652536