AIBU to think that the anti UPF books and diets around at the moment are just a new version of Clean Eating?

[TeaforTheWins]

Demonising all foods that have emulsifiers in and making us think that a “upf” free diet is realistic, to me, is madness. I eat well, I cook meals from scratch most of the time but of course I have “UPF” in my diet. A sandwich in my packed lunch made from supermarket bread, the odd tin of soup, biscuits with my tea, fruit yoghurts, a sandwich on the train, a supermarket croissant on a Sunday morning etc.
Am i not getting something? Or is this just another way to make women hate our bodies, hate ourselves for not having the time to be baking bread at home, and part with our hard earned money to buy artisan chocolate rather than the kit kat that we actually want.
I’ve read Ultra Processed People and I’ve listened to the podcasts, but I can’t see how this is at all realistic for working parents to live up to.

I think the 'clean eating' was more gimmicky... all that coconut sugar. Low UPF if not taken to the extreme (e.g. people obsessing over one stock cube in a home cooked recipe) is generally sensible.

But I do agree with some of your arguments about the structural issues: both feminist and class based. The system is set up to make it difficult to stick to low UPF, and the weight of doing it falls on women.

BUT I don't think it's 'designed to make women hate their bodies', although a lot of other stuff in society is! I think done sensibly it could actually help you understand, love and value your body more.

Edited: typo

B was a recreation of the chicken nuggets because it was a like for like meal to show cost comparison.

Mention of dahls, stews, etc underlines my point about knowing what to make being a privilege and not everyone has this knowledge or the wherewithal to seek it out. For a lot of people on low incomes it would also be a gamble of spending the food budget on something they know their family will eat vs something that they might not eat. Then there is the fuel cost of having the oven/air fryer on for 15-20 minutes vs having it on all day.

I find we eat more upf because of our allergies. We can't have dairy, soya, eggs, oats or legumes in our house so we rely on upf nut milks for calcium for example, coconut yogurt. Low upf breakfasts are almost impossible for us.

This. I read the ultra processed people book as a critique of the big companies, not at all on the individual consumer.

I cannot understand how having more fact- based information to make an informed, individualised decision is anything but a good thing. The book also touches on the privilege aspect of affording the time / produce to avoid UPF. As a Pp said, he also doesn't advocate an entirely UPF-free lifestyle, but after reading that book, I can understand why someone would cut it all out. However, I, personally, find it hard to cut out entirely after being conditioned to enjoy these foods all these decades!

I don't know about this. I don't think it's entirely new.

My grandma always ate very low ultra processed she used to call it "pure" food. She ate biscuits, cakes, treats but they were usually homemade. Her diet wasn't faddy and full of silly trendy stuff that is pushed now - but it was simple, whole foods. Homemade puddings. Low processed. I try to eat this way where I can, but equally I don't think I'm destroying my body to have a bag of monster munch now and then!

our go to fast meal is pasta Napoli.

It takes less than 10 mins to peel & crush 4 garlic cloves and chop up a couple of onions.
Add this to a pan with 2tbsp olive oil and let it cook for 4-5 mins while you open 2 tins of tomatoes. Add some basil & tomatoes then leave to simmer for 15 mins while you sort pasta and grate some cheese of choice.

Have you never heard of schnitzel?

Not typically cut up into the small pieces of nuggets, but otherwise functionally the same. A very classic and common dish in many countries. I'm from Poland and eat it regularly; also very common in Germany and Austria. Quick and easy to make.

I agree OP. I think there’s a subgroup of people who need to feel that they eat better than other people. And they often abscribe a moral virtue to this. And the easiest way for them to signal this to others is to choose a very black and white approach to food, where some food is good and other foods are bad.

And the current way to achieve this is to be militant about avoiding UPFs. Ten years ago it was all about clean eating. Twenty years ago it was the Atkins diet. Before that it was about eating low fat. In a few years it will be something else.

These threads always develop in the same direction: it’s too expensive and too time consuming to eat well. On top of that some indirect implications that stuff like KitKat is necessary for survival and can only be replaced with artisanal chocolate. Sorry but these are first world problems of people who still have too much money and resources to overeat crap even though they sometimes struggle to make ends meet.

The majority of our ancestors were poor and they ate diets of poor people: low in meat and protein, high in seasonal vegetables, high in foods that can be stored without a fridge such as fermented vegetables and dairy. Animals were eaten nose to tail because it would be wasteful to discard perfectly edible parts such as offal.

Nowadays seasonal vegetables are still cheap. Setting up a kefir or an onaka culture still takes under 3 minutes, making your own sauerkraut still takes about 5 minutes of preparation. Unlike our ancestors we have access to a huge selection of plant protein sources and last time I bought firm tofu it was 1/3 of the price of the cheapest chicken. It’s not a human right to eat chicken daily.

Fizzy drinks, crisps, KitKats, crème eggs, and so on are expensive especially if consumed in large quantities. It’s still cheaper to buy seasonal vegetables and lentils instead. The majority of people in developed countries have access to the internet so tons of recipes and videos are easily accessible. There are plenty of resources in cooking on a budget and with limited time. It’s a matter of willingness and priorities and I believe no amount of resources, education and legislation will make people prioritise healthy eating habits if they’d rather eat crap in front of Netflix.

Maybe people don’t prioritise it though?

Tofu and sauerkraut are just not as appetising as Doritos or crème eggs.

We live in a first world country (just) not in caveman times. People give into temptation.

I’ve tried tofu so many times. It’s just nasty

As well as this it's also an achingly middle class obsession...gives them something to feel superior about.

Have you read ultra processed people? Anyone who has read it knows it's not just some random attack or attempt at making money. If anything, the main takeaway I took from it was the true impact of capitalism on our health. Especially the most vulnerable.

It's entirely in keeping with our instincts that we'd eat the most available, high calorie, high fat and high sugar foods we can find. That's how humans survived. We should stop shaming people for this.

I don't think I really understand this whole business.

I would rarely have a microwave ready meal, or use a jar of sauce.

However, almost all my meals have ingredients which are processed to one degree or other. E.g. soy sauce, tikka paste, chorizo, etc. Spice mixes. Spreadable butter, runny honey. Tomato puree, garlic puree?

I imagine that these are medium or low processed, rather than "ultra", but there is a degree of processing, and it makes no sense to draw a black and white line between "fine" and "not fine".

I disagree, op. Eating ordinary food rather than UPF has been the norm for all human history until about 50 years ago (which also coincides with the start of the obesity epidemic). It’s UPF that’s the dodgy fad, not eating normal food.

I just don't understand how anyone can formulate a reasonable opinion on something they have taken no attempt to understand?

One of the nearest comparisons to UPFs is smoking, I suspect there was a lot of naysayers when the health warnings about smoking started to come about, who was right then? Was it a 'middle class obsession'?

Yes, of course that’s what I’m saying. Poor diet tends to be excused with lack of money, time, knowledge and resources. I don’t agree, it’s a matter of personal choices and priorities.

Creme eggs and Doritos are not necessarily universally appetising and are certainly not something we need to eat. It’s a choice to spend money on snacks and sweets.

That's one way, I guess. Eat the most available food there is. And we can carry on being the most obese nation in Europe.

I am choosing the other way. Middle class as it may be. I don't feel superior. I just know that with my shitty Asian genes, I will become diabetic at anything above a BMI of 23. And the NHS has broken down where I am.

I really fail to see how knowing more about our food is shaming us, though I haven't read Ultra Processed People myself.

This. And ordinary food is the norm in many cultures even today. UPF is the fad.

@TeaforTheWins I agree with you. I also think that the food-related stress and guilt that coverage of the harms of UPF (and supposedly related illnesses) induces must have a negative impact on our health.

Agree with this! Nowhere are individuals criticised, it’s the food industry and governments who are blamed.
Drs around the world are very worried about the number of younger people getting and dying from bowel cancer and they believe it may be linked to all the UPF we eat.
I don’t understand why people are so against a bit of extra knowledge. Not many can go full no UPF, but if we know about the risks we can try to make some choices based on that knowledge.

One of the nearest comparisons to UPFs is smoking, I suspect there was a lot of naysayers when the health warnings about smoking started to come about, who was right then? Was it a 'middle class obsession'?

But, much like UPFs, it's not as simple as "this is bad so don't do it" as there are many complex socio-economic factors behind why people do it and making it an issue of virtue is a middle-class obsession as it entirely ignores the reasons why people will still do it despite knowing they shouldn't. As a PP said, it gives certain people something to feel superior about.

This. And ordinary food is the norm in many cultures even today.

Until the likes of Nestle strategically infiltrate, get communities hooked and directly cause a huge rise in obesity 🤬🤬 and then have a community to sell their "health" products to.

This with bells on!

Why compare tofu and sauerkraut to Doritos and creme eggs? They are not at all in the same category of things. The number of people regularly choosing to replace dinner with snack food must be small. Even the full bag of Doritos will not fill you up like a normal dinner.

Doritos might make a more appetising snack than oat cakes, but items should be compared with items of a similar food category. This is like saying that blueberry jam is more appetising than lamb chops.