AIBU to think that the anti UPF books and diets around at the moment are just a new version of Clean Eating?

[TeaforTheWins]

Demonising all foods that have emulsifiers in and making us think that a “upf” free diet is realistic, to me, is madness. I eat well, I cook meals from scratch most of the time but of course I have “UPF” in my diet. A sandwich in my packed lunch made from supermarket bread, the odd tin of soup, biscuits with my tea, fruit yoghurts, a sandwich on the train, a supermarket croissant on a Sunday morning etc.
Am i not getting something? Or is this just another way to make women hate our bodies, hate ourselves for not having the time to be baking bread at home, and part with our hard earned money to buy artisan chocolate rather than the kit kat that we actually want.
I’ve read Ultra Processed People and I’ve listened to the podcasts, but I can’t see how this is at all realistic for working parents to live up to.

If you want to read something else, Henry Dimbleby's National Food Strategy report, and his book, address issues of food poverty, education, etc. The Tory government commissioned it, didn't like the findings, and ignored most of it.

I am going down the road of less meat as I get older. Beans are lovely if you add flavour, Dahl too.
Veggie soup really takes no time to cook, even for a parent with a busy life - crunchy bread with proper butter. Mmmmm.
And the pots of soup are stupidly expensive
It's the sausages and bacon with nitrites that are really bad, although I love a bacon sarnie. Not too often though.
I think you have to strike a balance
And yes, I do eat the meal deals sometimes
My sister had coeliac disease, so mum had to cook from fresh, as everything had flour as a bulking agent back in the day. She grew out of it as the diet was so strict. Pain for Mum though, working full time

I have a neurological pain disorder that flares up if I eat UPFs. They cause inflammation. I tried to cut them out completely and it was sooo difficult. Expensive and time consuming. But they definitely do affect the body negatively, just some people may notice that more directly than others (as is my case).

I remember an indulgent few days once while away on a hen long weekend which involved more UPF than usual and I was surprised I woke up aching for no apparent reason. I put it down to inflammation.

Agree it’s difficult to completely remove. So hard.

It's even worse amongst vegans 😂 there's a lot of one-upmanship about who can live the least processed life. Personally I cook mostly from scratch. But sometimes I'll have a fake meat burger with processed cheese and really enjoy it. And I dont give a shit 😁

I don't understand how you've read it and missed the point so much.

What would a Doctor get out of lobbying governments to improve food laws just to 'make women hater their bodies'?

It is stated several times in the book that people should aim for an 80:20 split. Of course, some of us aim to avoid it as much as possible, but sometimes it's not possible and that's OK.

My only issue with it is how costly it is. It's fine if you can afford Waitrose/Ocado shops, but I feel for families on a budget who really want to feed their kids as well as possible but can't. Buying sourdough and making everything from scratch is pretty costly.

It 100% is not.

There is now a vast amount of research from many countries that back what the book states.

It's about awareness, that's all.

I agree with this - I’ve been an expat since my early 20s and so have become used to eating a diet with hardly any UPF. It’s just not an part of the diet here.

It really isn’t that hard to avoid UPF once you’ve got used to it! We eat eggs or oats and fruit for breakfast, meat and veggie dishes with rice for lunch, and then something similar for dinner. There’s no real need to include all the things you mentioned in your diet? Like who NEEDS a supermarket croissant, canned soup, or biscuits?

And I hate to be that person but you can bung a few bits in a bread maker and it will make the bread for you, it’s not really hard. You can make 5 minute cookie recipes instead of store bought biscuits if you want. It takes like 10 minutes of actual labor to make homemade soup and it’s so easy. I get being a busy mum on a budget - I work full time and have 3 kids and DH works away so I’m doing it all alone most of the time. I’m just saying, it’s really not that hard once you’re in the habit and if you make it a priority you don’t even lose much time and can still eat great food.

It’s even probably cheaper to buy fresh meat, veg and rice or quinoa etc and cook for yourself.

When I went back to the UK recently I was shocked by how people rely on UPF. It’s just s habit but it’s not necessary and we don’t need to pretend that everyone is demonizing it unnecessarily just to make ourselves feel better about consuming it. If you don’t want to eat it don’t. If you do, do. It’s your own decision.

Are these issues appearing in war zones? In places like Afghanistan where women have no rights? The US and UK don't have the highest levels of stress! The How Not to Die book identified the Pacific islands and some Middle Eastern countries as having high levels of obesity and it seemed to be genetics and epigenetics rather than stress.
Rebelfit on Facebook blames stress though, iirc.

There's a difference between the book- which is fine although I think does under recognise that women are predominantly responsible for feeding families and so any change to diet increases the mental load, probably the financial load and is a time suck. It's work, it's labour. That labour falls predominantly on women.

But yes, he's good on structural food issues but less so the intersection with privilege.

And then- as actually quite well illustrated on this thread- the values/moralising that results ('How could you feed your kids this stuff! It's easy, you just need to find x hours a week to batch cook!' For which you need x hours, bulk ingredients, fuel, freezer space). You can separate those out. There are some bonkers/borderline orthorexic threads on MN agonising over brands of tinned tomatoes. Are there threads by men thinking about this on men's websites? Outside of clean eating bodybuilding types? No.

Incidentally you can see this in earlier sugar-related discussions as well. Same thing. Women's moral weakness.

Ah yes. The privilege of the upper echelons that is to be able to buy a bag of reduced priced carrots and other root veg from Aldi, and spend a few hours in the kitchen with the kids on a Sunday.

No one is even saying batch cooking is essential. It's perfectly possible not to do it and still not spend hours cooking after work.

While there are absolutely people without access to supermarkets with raw ingredients, the people on threads like this saying it's impossible/a privilege do have access to these things. This constant message that it's expensive and time consuming is just rubbish. A meal of broccoli, potatoes, a few tomatoes in a sauce and some white fish is cheap and takes absolutely no time to make. A homemade soup of onions, celery, garlic, carrot, potato and dried herbs is also dirt cheap and quick.

And there are a dozen other meals I can think of that are the same.

Earlier this year for a get together with friends, I bought the pre-made stuff. It cost me an absolute arm and a leg. It's expensive. It still takes time to cook.

And yes - I am shocked that so many people willingly give their kids a diet like that when you can literally see the effects of it in so many of them. I know several couples, both who work part time, who's kids are overweight and they have UPF's for three meals a day plus snacks and take-aways. One mum says much the same "who has time/money?" ....well she has the time, more time than me in fact, and definitely the money.

Not everything is down to being super privileged. Some people are just making excuses because they don't want to hear the truth. Fine - don't do it! But stop the ridiculous droning that it's impossible unless you're earning thousands a year and have a private nanny/personal chef.

It’s not really easy for a huge amount of people to pop some ingredients into a bread machine, slice it and freeze it. You need to be home in time to defrost it if you need to use it etc. Bread machines take up a lot of room, they use electricity and are expensive t0 buy (even second hand). Supermarket bread is 75p and will last the week.
It’s not really easy for a huge amount of people to make a packed lunch for themselves and their three children without a fruit yoghurt or a sandwich made with supermarket bread. It’s not realistic for so many people not to have a fishfinger dinner once a week. I’m amazed that so many people think it really is an accessible way to live. A realistic day for many is up at 6 to get the packed lunches ready, get the children ready for school and to leave to walk to school for breakfast clubs. In work by 8am to work until 2.30pm to then go and get the children from school. Walk the children to granny’s house so that mum can then go to her cleaning job which finishes at 6.30pm.
She then walks the children home for dinner which is fishfingers, smiles and peas. Quick, cheap and can all be in the freezer. After dinner it’s reading books and spellings then bed, ready for another day where it all starts again. The weekends Mum fits in another job around the kids clubs (paid for by the third job) and a walk in the park to feed the ducks. They also fit in the supermarket shop, get home admin done and bills paid. That’s the weekend done and dusted.
This is so many people’s reality and I find it so sad that there are many women who
are dismissive of this.
I also find it interesting that the majority of people I talk to who proudly suggest that they don’t eat any UPF do infact consume other substances that have huge research behind them to be terrible for our health ie red meat (even if grass fed and bought from a butcher) alcohol (even £45 a bottle red wine) and will take no physical exercise, which is proven to be hugely beneficial to our health. I’m not suggesting that this is a blanket argument, of course lots of people eating a no upf diet are also alcohol free and exercise, but a lot of people justify the booze by saying “red wine has antioxidants! Etc.
I find this all fascinating because ultimately we need to find a way to combat lifestyle related illnesses and childhood obesity but I can’t see how putting the pressure onto women to make “better food choices” is at all helpful. Many of the posts here put the blame onto women for presuming that they are just not making the time to prioritise health for their family.

No one is saying that, obviously. Although, actually, lots of people don't have a few hours a week with the kids, or it's a trade off for other stuff.

But your friend in the above example. Does she have a partner? Where is the kids' dad? Or does he get a free pass on this, household food nothing to do with him?

Those 'eat well for less' TV programme do exactly the same thing by the way. They replace the financial cost of food with the cost of almost always women's labour.

Agreed @GiddyRobin. However, I'm also mindful of how addictive this stuff is. The craving is real and the decision to stop eating it is a process and it's normal to start at a place of denial.

What Dr Chris has done is produce a book that presents the science and research in a very accessible, relatable and persuadable way. He isnt selling a diet plan. He isnt laying a guilt trip on people. Hes just providing information. It's really worth a listen (its on Spotify) or read.

Another great book is Why We Eat too Much. Can't remember who wrote that, but the focus is more of obesity and UHPF.

There will always be people who take things to extremes and exist in purity spirals, but everyone can decide for themselves what they want to eat and how far they want to take this. It's just good to have the info when you're making that decision, no?

In which case, like I said, batch cooking isn't essential if they're crammed for time. I don't batch-cook every single week if we have a busy Sunday. But it's still easy and quick to cook from scratch.

The kids dad is at home and a decent guy. I mention the mum simply because it's her who made the comments. I didn't give him a free pass at all - stop trying to twist this to suit a narrative. Amusingly I learned how to cook from my full-time working dad who made a meal from scratch every night of the week and didn't have freezer space to batch cook. He was a single parent after my mum died, worked manual labour, and he did it. He was always baffled by how expensive the processed stuff was, too, and didn't get why people would choose it.

It's hardly labour to boil a few spuds and other veg, grill some fish and fry up a handful of tomatoes.

That quote at the bottom is from Tim Spector of Zoe who is one of the main campaigners against UPF. The ‘eat food’ part means whole foods, as opposed to UPF (which he describes as not food).

What would your suggestion be to combat childhood obesity and lifestyle illnesses @TeaforTheWins?

I’m not sure I ever suggested that I had the answer to this, @Lentilweaver ?

No you didn't really @TeaforTheWins . I am not having a dig at you. But as you described the situation for many in your last post and said we need to find a way to solve obesity, I was curious.

I am sure in my mind that the cure for these things is not blaming and shaming women for not having the time to “pop a few ingredients into a bread machine” or to simply “boil a few spuds and grill some fish”. The problem is far more complex than that.

Then don't make bread in a bread maker. Baking a loaf of bread doesn't take that long. Or you could make wraps and freeze them. Or don't do sandwiches at all. There are other options. Why does it need to be a fruit yogurt? Why not some slices of cheese and fruit?

You can freeze fish and cook that in place of fishfingers. Smilies could be swapped foe potatoes. Peas are peas, no swap needed. Still takes the same amount of time, unless you're saying chopping potatoes and remembering to defrost a piece of fish is labour intensive.

As for people consuming things like booze...I agree that's not healthy either. I think most people know drinking in excess is bad for you. Can't comment much on the red meat as we don't eat meat, just fish.

To me it's about being able to make an informed choice. I feel so much better when I don't eat UPF. Yes it's not always possible but it's also easier when you have more information available to you and a better understanding.

What I do find a hit baffling is those that completely dismiss it. We have an obesity crisis and an NHS which is groaning under the weight. UPF food producers are not in it for health reasons. It's all about money. Until 40 odd years ago we all basically ate a UPF free diet. It's can't be that difficult when the human race has survived for thousands of years without UPF.

You could buy a whole chicken cheaper than breasts.
It doesn’t need breadcrumbs and eggs.
just roast it and use left overs for curry, stew etc.
Use the eggs you didn’t use making nuggets to make a large omelette.

I think it’s a different way of cooking rather than a more difficult way.

In your example you’re trying to make a copy of ultra processed food.

Plain cooking is easy enough.

My DH makes bread from Aldi yoghurt and oats. It’s very filling and you don’t need much. Some people add eggs but he doesn’t.

I read the book and didn’t find him to be down on women.

It’s informative and conversational as well as extremely interesting.

Or you could make wraps and freeze them.

I’m wondering how I’m going to have time to cook nutritious meals that take longer than ten minutes to cook when I return to work, while juggling the shopping, laundry, cleaning, reading, bath time, admin, quality time with my DC and my DH alongside a demanding job I often take home with me. feel like making wraps from scratch is a whole other level.

We have shop bought wholemeal tortilla wraps but loaded with a variety of veg and high quality chicken in fajitas. I will also make my own spice mix. I really don’t think I need to also make the wraps from scratch and I’m fine with that as I also want to model moderation and balance to my DC.

It takes less than an hour to make some wraps. I work full time in a demanding job, have two children and pets. It's really not difficult; the people saying it's impossible have clearly never made these things. It doesn't take away any quality time with my children either - they love getting involved. Just as I did when I was a kid.

If you're happy with what you're eating, as you say; good for you. No one is forcing you to do otherwise, but it doesn't mean the conversation shouldn't be had or that other people are wrong for not wanting that for their kids.