AIBU to think it's time for the NHS to do itself a favour and make WL injections readily available.

[nextdoorconundrum]

I've posted about this before but following the news today from the chief scientific officer for the British Heart Foundation - Professor Brian Williams - that the health benefits of these drugs appears to be beneficial in the reduction of heart disease, high bp, stroke , arthritis and even Alzheimer's.. (interviews on R4 today programme and channel 4 news just now for anyone wanting to hear all he had to say ) .: Is it not time now for the NHS to actually save itself the fortune it spends in treating obesity related diseases - rather than obesity itself.

There is also something highly questionable about a drug that is readily available to people who can afford it - but is mostly not available to those who most need it . With extremely narrow parameters and some ridiculous hoops to jump through before being 'allowed it on the NHS.(Obesity affects 39% of women in the most deprived areas as opposed to 22% in the least )

www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg189/documents/health-inequalities-briefing-2#:~:text=The%20greatest%20rates%20of%20adult,in%20the%20least%20deprived%20areas.

I say this as a financially comfortable mc woman who has lost 4 stone on WL injections. I no longer cost the NHS any money in BP drugs, Sleep Apnea machine, Corticosteroids for knees etc - in fact for the first time in 26 years I only take thyroxine which is not something that can be reversed. The only reason I have managed this is because I could afford to buy it. Surely this is not only wrong but immoral in a national health system ?

The argument of 'is it safe ?' doesn't hold water . It has been approved through extensive and thorough trials across both the United States and most of Europe. It is no more or less safe than any new drug.

The argument of 'some people get nausea and vomiting and other side effects ' yes this is true. As do some people on all kinds of drugs . I personally can't tolerate penicillin - doesn't mean it should not have been allowed to save the lives of millions for 70 years. !

Last but not least.. what happens when you get to a healthy weight and stop taking it ? Well I guess it's exactly the same as blood pressure medication. You take it when it creeps up again .. perhaps it just becomes one of those drugs that you take lifelong on and off to maintain good health ..

Far far cheaper than treating all the current diseases associated with obesity and morbid obesity..

YABU - we can't afford it
YANBU - it's a false economy not to make it readily available to people with obesity if they want to try it.

I have been fat (and slim) on and off all my life, I am 5 ft 3-ish, and have been between 9 stone and 15 and a half stone over my lifetime (sort of half way between now - and a size 14-16.) Mid-late 50s. Could do with losing a bit of weight

I have to say though, that hell will freeze over before I get injections to lose weight. And I would never get surgery! I know someone will say I sound smug - and it's a bit annoying when people say this, but really, why are people not just cutting down their food and getting more exercise?

No-one should be getting to the stage where they need weight loss injections and surgery to lose weight! I also think NONE of this should be available on the NHS. And if someone goes to Turkey or somewhere else abroad, and has weight loss surgery, and it goes wrong, they should not be allowed to have it fixed on the NHS. From say, January 2025 this should be stopped! If people go and get things done abroad and it goes wrong, they go with the knowledge that the NHS will NOT pick up the bill. This is the risk they take!

I saw some items on the news a few weeks ago about this very thing. One woman (mid 30s) had gone to Turkey to have a gastric by-pass, (she was 19 stone,) and it had gone terribly wrong. She was ill for about a year and a half, and had to have around 7 different surgeries to put it right. Cost to the NHS = £150,000. All because she didn't want to pay the £10,000 to have the surgery over here privately. (In Turkey it was £5000.) So because she was too tight to pay the extra, she destroyed her health, and cost the NHS £150,000.

She lost 7 stone after the surgery within about 5 months.

3 years later it has all gone back on ... What was the point?!

So I disagree with weight loss surgery and injections being funded by the NHS, because almost everyone I know who has had it and lost 6 stone or more (or has lost 6 stone or more without medical intervention,) has put it ALL BACK ON. (And in some cases, they have also gained an extra stone or two.)

Also, as has been said by a few posters, some people expect excess skin removal surgery to be funded by the NHS too. And they still put all or most of the weight back on even then. Because skin stretches of course!

So how is the NHS funding peoples weight loss drugs and surgeries helping the NHS? The vast majority of people will regain the weight! Some people have a bad relationship with food, and will simply put all the weight back on. And I know what I'm talking about, because I have struggled all my life with my weight, and lost it and gained it back, and lost it and gained it back et al....

The world is burning. The fact is we need to be consuming less manufactured packaged crap, less meat, closer sourced food….continuing to consume the same crap and manufacturing more crap to help people eat less of it in an easier way is literally bonkers.

What gets me is we have to eat on a budget, can only afford meat once a week, don’t consume red meat,have to eat lentils at least once a week, don’t buy crap or ever eat out or have take aways( can’t afford it or the cost to ourselves) but others can eat a huge amount of expensive food and then apparantly have precious NHS resources diverted from other areas that need it on top to ensure they don’t eat as much in an easier way.

I have two ND kids with disordered eating. One has been seriously ill from Anorexia and the other binges. The Anorexic has beaten it with precious little resources from a broken MH system and her brother is in the process of fighting it. It’s agonising as he wrestle with trauma on top but he is pushing through it. Both have had to do it on an extremely tight budget( I can’t afford chicken breast salad etc).

It is possible and I don’t get why others expect to drain NHS resources further to do it with zero effort whilst continuing to damage the planet and I suspect in many cases not actually improving their cholesterol and risk of cancer at all.

Well that will cause perverse behaviour then. I may as well enjoy eating loads and get a bit fat for a while so that I can get access to a drug that suppresses my appetite and makes my life a lot easier and happier 🤷🏽‍♀️

No, non-overweight people absolutely should not have access to this.

My point earlier in the thread was that research suggests much wider uses for this drug than weight loss. It was found to reduce CRP levels by 40%. CRP being a measure of inflammation. My life is ruled by inflammation due to inflammatory disease, not something that can be cured by eating less and I'm not overweight anyway. Once it can be produced cheaply it could have potential in all kinds of diseases.

@AutumnLeaves5
I don’t know how that loop is broken, unless the government really to want to change things and bring in much stricter regulation of these industries.

The problem is these companies spend £££££ lobbying the government in oder to influence policy to stop them changing things and bringing in stricter regulations. Until the government isn't influenced by these big companies they aren't going to do what is best for everyone, these companies have to much power.

@HeySummerWhereAreYou

I know someone will say I sound smug - and it's a bit annoying when people say this, but really, why are people not just cutting down their food and getting more exercise?

Not smug, but lacking knowledge for sure.

I know the absolute ins and outs of how to lose weight. I know what to eat, when to eat it, the best exercise etc etc

What I do not know is how to stop myself from eating. How to put all that in place and make it stick.

You yourself say you have yo-yod for years, so you also can not make it stick. For whatever reason.

My reasons are neglect, trauma and neurodivergence. They make it difficult, very difficult, like running a marathon every weekend.

It's never going to be as simple as eat less move more.

To get to the stage of needing it though, you’d likely be living quite a difficult life and miserable. Living with obesity is not a lot of fun

@Funnywonder just seen your reply to my comment. No of course it's not a failing. It is sad but not a failing, though I never used the word fail in my post in the first place so not sure where that's stemming from. My point is that we need to be dealing with the actual causes rather than the result if you see what I mean. So much more mental health focus rather than handing out temporary fixes, otherwise people will be left with the exact same things they started with. Nobody gets to morbidly obese by accident, nobody gets there by chance. There is an underlying reason for each person and that is the bit that needs the support.

Yes that’s true. But it certainly will decentivize people who are overweight, but not obese yet, from trying to lose weight as they may just think instead it will be easier for them to put on more weight until they get into the obese category and qualify for weight loss injections. It’s kind of similar to saying that support to help stop smoking will only be given to people who smoke 40 a day but not 20.

Weight loss won’t treat your trauma. I want my son’s trauma treated. I don’t want sticking plaster drugs and I don’t want MH services drained even further to fund these jabs. I also don’t want him diverting his attention from food to something else.

Also re ND, eating disorders are common in the ND. A starved brain can develop Anorexia easily. ND often comes with a fixed mindset which can enable EDs to get a worse grip. I actually think ND people are not necessarily a safe group for these drugs .

@Mang0M1nt

Weight loss won’t treat your trauma.

I know, I wasn't trying to suggest it would. Just dipping into the discussion because of the 'just eat less and move more' comment.

I don't want the drugs, I have no interest.

But you don't want to get fat. You've said so, and you are able to stop it happening. So it's hardly likely you are going to do this, is it?

Surprisingly, most morbidly obese people don't want to be that way. They don't get there because they can control their eating like you clearly can. Yes, out of desperation, some very overweight people have resorted to tipping the scales that bit further to qualify for surgery.

But honestly, can you think of a single person with a normal BMI and a standard attitude to food that has stuffed themselves to the extent they become obese enough to qualify for medical intervention?

You have a standard attitude to food. You have to be a bit more careful now you have reached menopause (don't we all). Are you really going to sacrifice your health to that extent just to be able to not have to be a little bit careful? I don't think so.

Some on this thread have given very good medical reasons why this drug might be needed. Not wanted.

Earlier in the thread I gave a very good reason why handing it out like a sweetie to everyone who 'wants' it is far from a good idea.

Ah, sorry @pickd. Honestly, that wasn't an attack on you. It's just that there have been so many comments on here and a couple of similar threads where posters are mystified that obese and overweight people can't just quit eating and go for a run. I genuinely wanted to congratulate you. I was just being supportive of all the people who struggle and will never be able to lose weight without intervention.

No I don’t want to get fat. But I would like to be half a stone to a stone lighter. And it sounds like these drugs would make it easy for me to do that compared with diet and exercise. So why shouldn’t I have access to them?

If that's the case, then yes, absolutely, but again, that is a medical need, not a want. You'd get it on prescription for that condition.

The response you quoted was to someone who thought it should be available to the non-overweight just so they don't have to be a bit careful. So basically, to 'cheat'.

@Funnywonder thank you I can see your point too. I hope you have a calm and happy Sunday

Because you don't have a medical need for them.
I've explained all this. You are treating this like a cheat. Not a serious solution to a serious medical problem.

Because as others have said they do or can have side effects

if someone is 5 stone overweight the risks of that make the risks of the drug worth it

but not if they are a stone overweight

the manufacturers say they are not for cosmetic weight loss

A lot of obese people don’t have a medical need for them. I agree some do as losing weight is impossible for some due to disabilities, trauma etc. But some obese people could exercise more and eat less.

I’m just playing devil’s advocate to be honest. But a lot of people do see it as a cheat and will be annoyed at their taxes paying for other people getting the easy option to losing weight when they have to put in the hours at the gym and not eat whatever they like.

Similar here. I'm 10 stone overweight and it all seems impossible to be honest. And then read statistics that for 95% of people it actually is.

Just eating a bit less won't sort this. Injections might but I can't afford them. Surgery is fairly drastic when injections could help.

Or treatment for ND or intensive eating disorder support but neither of these are currently available to me either.

I am not 'lacking in knowledge.' As I said, I have struggled with my weight for decades, and been between 9 stone and 15 and a half stone. Binged, crash dieted, and had eating disorders since I was 15-16. (So over 40 years!) I have a tricky relationship with food, and have spent half my life on a diet and fretting about my weight. And frankly, your comment that I am 'lacking in knowledge' about weight struggles, and eating disorders, disgusting - and insulting.

IMO weight loss surgery AND the injections need binning altogether. The fact that the vast majority of people regain the weight tells me that. Injections are risky and we don't know the long term effects yet. And the surgery is life threatening!

And many people who have weight loss surgery go on to be very ill, and often cannot ever eat properly again. They are NEVER the same, and their health never recovers. And as for the ones who ARE OK after it, nearly always regain the weight. So I stand by what I say. Weight loss surgery (and the injections frankly, are pointless and they should all be banned.)

I am entitled to that opinion, whether you like it or agree with it or not. And you are entitled to your opinions.. But do NOT tell me that I am 'lacking in knowledge' about this. Such a rude and ignorant comment from you.

.

Obesity is not caused by a lack of willpower.
Obesity is caused by the omnipresence of edible food like substances which have been highly engineered to be as addictive as possible.

The lack of opportunities for enjoyable and safe exercise is also responsible for the much higher rates of obesity that we see in modern times.

It seems that people are hung up on over weight people being able to saunter off to the GP and get weight loss injections to lose a couple of pounds. My post was not about this at all. Of course they shouldn't. People carrying a little extra weight are least likely to be using other NHS resources. Nor are they candidates for the more expensive and intensive medical interventions that cost the NHS the most.

I am talking about the obese and the morbidly obese. These people are the most costly not just due to obesity but all the associated costs linked to that condition.

A long term study presented by Professor Rachel Batterham , head of Obesity research at University College London. showed that women with simple obesity (BMI 30-40) had a 1:124 chance of returning to a healthy weight. By diet and exercise alone . For those with morbid obesity (BMI 40+) had a 1:644 chance. Of those very rare '1s' 75% had put all on and more within 5 years.

These are peer reviewed facts. Not opinions. Which means whatever your views on obesity .. running the full gamut from 'greedy lazy fuckers' all the way to 'it's a disease that can't be helped. - and as of the last NHS survey this is the reality for 26.8 of the adult uk population . That's 18 MILLION people !! . Even more concerning is that for our current 10-12 year olds this is a staggering 23%.

So regardless of your feelings on how they have got there . They ARE there - and statistically highly unlikely to ever be a healthy weight again without intervention and the numbers are growing alarmingly.

It is also a fact that diet and exercise, has a I virtually no impact on changing this. It is what it is. The cost to the country is staggering and without some help in the form of medication.. it is going to get exponentially worse.

The average morbidly obese person costs the NHS twice that of a person of healthy weight. £638 vs £1375 (2023) .

There is also another cost. That of economic inactivity. The most obese are highly unlikely to be working and paying tax. . and due to the other comorbidities much more likely to be received state benefits and disability payments.

Easy access to Ozempic/Mountjaro for this group of Obese and Super obese individuals at £80 per month (with its added benefits to heart/bp/arthritis Seems a complete no brainer. With it being a life long drug like insulin or thyroxine to keep them healthy. In case of re gain.

I really believe there is a whole prejudice out there that think fat people deserve all they get and should not receive any help from the public purse - without realising their taxes currently pay towards the 1.3BN that obesity costs the NHS last year. Let alone the cost to the treasury

These are the statistic that terrify me. I'm 40+ bmi. I don't know what to do. My quality of life is decreasing and it is affecting what work I can apply for.

What do I do?! Like so many on this thread my Dr suggested I eat less. Yet there's a less than 1% chance of that working 😭