To call out friend on 'body positivity' delusion?

[treesandflowers95]

My bestie (i'll call her 'J') and I have been friends since primary school. She's godmother to my DD and we almost see each other as sisters as friends.

J has always been a curvier girl but as we've gone through our 20s, she's steadily put on more and more weight. She's 5ft 2 and now a size 30. Over the last couple of years its been noticeable how much into the 'body positivity' movement shes got. Her socials are full of shared posts about it, and she'll often bring it up in conversation.

Its not something i've ever really made an issue of with her before as though it worries me for her, i've always been of the view that everybody's body is their own business.

However we were on a hen do a few weeks ago, and honestly it was a real eye opener to just how big she's got and the impact that's starting to have on her health. The first one for me was that she needed a seatbelt extender on the flight and she seemed to think it was hilarious. We stayed in a villa on the edge of a little area with a strip of bars and restaurants. It was 350yds (i put it into Google maps) and slightly downhill on the way there and uphill on the way back, but nothing major. J was struggling to keep up with us on the way there, and on the way back was having to stop at least once because she was so out of breath. Bear in mind this was a group of girls quite a few in heels etc so its not like we were sprinting, and shes sweating and bright red. Aside from that, even basic stuff round the villa like walking upstairs (it was over 3 floors) and she struggled climbing up and down the ladders in and out of the pool. I didnt say anything to her at the time but its played on my mind.

This weekend there were four of us (all close friends) who'd been on the hen do out for drinks in the pub. We were talking about the hen do and i can't remember how it came up, but she started talking about the walk back to the villa and how steep the hill was etc. I said to her something along the lines of 'Oh it wasn't that bad' to which she replied 'Are you joking, it was so steep!' and was basically trying to get the other girls to agree and I just left it.

A bit later in the conversation she was talking about some body positivity stuff and how its about how you look after yourself and not how much you weigh. I've bit my tongue at stuff like this loads of times, but this time i said 'I think that's true to an extent but there's a point where you can't argue that you're healthy'. She didn't look happy and said 'what are you saying?'. I basically said that the fact she thought that walk on holiday was so difficult that she should have struggled with it so much was worrying, and might suggest her health wasn't as good as she seems to think it is. The reality is (and I didn't say this to her) that she eats really badly and drinks quite a lot. She spends loads on hair, make up, nails, etc which she considers as looking after herself.

She got really frosty with me, and has been funny in texts since, not her usual self, so i know i've annoyed her.

Fully accept it may not have been the best way to bring it up especially in front of others (but it wasnt like it was strangers, we're all mates back to primary school) but i just felt like it wasn't a time where i could just say nothing in the moment.

So i guess question is AIBU to have brought this up with her, and any advice on how to handle things next.

'And the amount of people who want to be obese probably account for less than 5% of cases (you know, the extreme cases where people actively try to get bigger).

If you're suffering from obesity, you've got medical problems at play - most likely mental health (and possibly genetically) related. No one really eats themselves to obesity on purpose, as a goal in life.

People who are fully sound in all ways, don't get over 21 stone on purpose. Come on now.

People whom suffer obesity as a result of eating too much, exercising too little are suffering an eating disorder - often alongside other mental health struggles. Have a slither of comprehension of people, at least.'
@SpeakfromExperience

The leading cause^ of obesity is unhealthy lifestyle. Yes some people may be obese due to bad mental health, but that's such an overused excuse. A lot of the time it's just due to laziness, lack of willpower and greed. And if it is caused by that, and they started losing weight, their mental health would start to improve. There are many many excuses around obesity, whilst some are valid yes, it's mostly down to lifestyle choices. Choices.^

No idea why my post was in Italics but here we are!

How ridiculous. I don't think one person on this thread has said anyone should feel shame about their weight, ESPECIALLY someone who has lost weight.
Why do you think this?

Mmm. A 'choice' swathes of the population takes now but didn't 40 years ago? Seems to ignore UK social changes as well as scientific insights in order to finger wag at individuals.

Morbid obesity is caused by disordered eating though, and in many cases a diagnosable eating disorder. It's comparable to anorexia in some ways in that it often has psychological roots.

Maybe, but at least it won't be a deliberate act of self destruction that is costing others.

If we started to see obese people as wanting their cake, to eat it too and to have everyone else's cake as well, all this 'body positivity' bollocks would die on it's arse and more people would find a way to get a grip rather than be like sheep and catch on to a bandwagon as it's the least effort option.

I do think the body positivity is not to blame for morbidly obese people - there is clearly more to their condition than that.

For the size 12-16 I would say yes it is to blame for people slipping into being "overweight" but I don't think people these sizes are always unhealthy.

The clothing sizes have shot up in the past 10 years and a 10 is not more like a 12-14 in old sizing. But it is just a number.

Health wise if a person is physically healthy and psychologically healthy this is the main thing- someone who is a size 8-10 and obsessed about excersize and diet is not always healthier mentally than someone who is more relaxed, does sport for a hobby and is a size 10-12.

Being morbidly obese is very different in my opinion- you would know you are dangerously fat and putting your health at risk, but there are clearly issues which prevent you either internal or external from changing the situation

Tough one. It’s one thing keeping quiet and not directly challenging her false narrative. It’s another when asked to be complicit in that lie. For me the latter is a step too far, and I have probably pissed people off by not actively agreeing with their delusions when they wanted me to.

It's a fact that your friend is likely to be creating serious health problems for herself unless she addresses her weight.

I'm sure she knows it but for some reason she can't face it right now.

It must be bloody difficult to be her friend and not be honest with her. If we see friends doing other things that could potentially affect their health we might also say something.

I think you've done all you can really, the rest is up to her.

Normalisation of unhealthy weight is already well and truly with us, even in discussions like this. So many 'poor friend' responses.

Where is the outrage in the opposite direction?
A healthy tethered-in-reality response from OP to friend:

'How dare you try to manipulate me into joining in with your abusive worldview and destructive behaviour, which is harming yourself and society.'

This applies to anyone trying to normalise being overweight/obese as perfectly healthy actually.

The entire topic has been shifted into the mollycoddling, tiptoe around on eggshells zone. Classic signs of an abusive dynamic at work, riddled with gaslighting and emotional/psychological bullying.

Some of you might want to listen to what Janet Treasure Prof of Psychiatry at Kings has to say about eating disorders (medic with 40 years experience combining genetic research with psychiatry and treatment).

‘Calling someone out’ and ‘telling them’ they’re delusional is literally the equivalent of telling a depressed person to snap out of it. She has spoken about family members being trained because that approach doesn’t work.

There is a debate to be had about the negative side of body positivity (saying it’s healthy when it’s not), but several on the thread are wilfully ignorant of the difference between the person being described here and someone who needs to lose a couple of stone.

This is the kind of comment that has 'ruined' the movement. Not one person has said that her friends deserves to feel shame or that concern is for aesthetic reasons. What in OPs post suggests if her friend lost weight she'd berate her or whatever?

As for the genetic component, research has shown time and time again that drug addiction is often underpinned by unresolved trauma and that some people are more susceptible to it. My DB was a heroin addict, were we supposed to not be honest with him about the harm he was doing to himself because it's not his fault? It's a weird concept, especially when no one is actually speaking about shaming people.

There have been over 50 genes associated with obesity - fact. I don’t know anything about drug addiction so cant comment on that. It sounds tough for your family.

There are no doubt some similarities in triggers but treatment is very different.

Eating cant be abstained. There is no synthetic equivalent for nutrition. It’s a whole different level of behavioural rewiring, plus add on a genetics component for some people and its very hard.

In both cases there is a high % ‘relapse’

What I’m referring to is an actual expert in eating disorders and how they’ve changed approach because of what they were seeing wasn’t solving the problem.

That sounds positive, OP, and the best you could do in the circumstances. For reasons I explained I thought you were wrong to say what you did, but I don't think you were uncaring or wanted to humiliate your friend, you were just a bit clumsy in a very difficult situation. We've all been there. I hope you're able to rescue the friendship.

But regardless of the cause no one should feel obliged to support their delusion when it's going to kill them is the point.

I agree that our lifestyles now are much more sedentary than a few decades ago and you have to make more effort and find extra time to exercise. Most households have two working parents so less time to cook from scratch etc. the main form of entertainment for many people is screen based. However, it is possible to make different choices, if you have some wriggle room financially to choose to live somewhere that you can walk or cycle to work for instance. You CAN cook from scratch and batch cook and freeze etc. I do none of this by the way and the extra four stone I'm carrying shows it.
I know there's a clear correlation between poverty and cheap, terrible food and yes there are genetic factors, illnesses etc but for most of us it is simply about poor habits.

You are confusing the question of what is and isn't healthy, with appropriate behaviour in adult friendships. Being right doesn't mean you should say it. Unless you have the misfortune to completely lack social filters.

There have been posters on this very thread that have said when concerned friends and family have approached them about their weight, that was the catalyst for them making a change.

But no one is in 100% perfect health, especially past the age of 40.

Eh, what?? Yes, plenty of us are! Yes it gets harder as you need to be very careful what you put in your mouth and be as abstemious as possible when it comes to alcohol. But to think that being over 40 automatically means your health starts declining, that's a very alarming idea, to me. Over 60, sure, you're gonna see wear and tear, cancer risk goes up, etc etc. But 40??? What the hell were those people doing in their 20s to make that happen???

I have one obese friend who runs half marathons.

Eeeesh, obesity and distance running is asking for achilles tendinopathy, platar fasciatisi, and knee/hip replacements. Did you know that when you run your achilles breifly leverages 4 times your weight at each step. So if your BMI is, say, 28....urgh my joints are crying thinking about it. For the love of all that's holy PLEASE ask your friend to switch to cycling or swimming until she sheds the excess weight.

Final thought: Health At Every Size is a horrible lie.

This is exactly right. The pages of posts on obesity vs anorexia, the pros and cons of body positivity and debate of the ‘choice factor’ on obesity are completely irrelevant.

OP wasn’t required to ‘speak her truth’ in this scenario. And she didn’t even ‘speak her truth’ out of love and care, she did it because she was annoyed and felt the compulsion to make a correction at the expense of her friend’s feelings. The idea that people should ‘say something because they love them’ is a delusion in itself. 99% of the time, it’s because you just have a problem with it and you want to assert yourself. People don’t need friends to tell them ‘painful truths’ at social gatherings – they just don’t.

This is so lovely to hear! Did you know that studies show that dog owners consistently show better mental health and fitness levels than non dog owners...I strongly believe that therapy dogs and dog ownership should be recognised as a treatment path for obesity as obesity is a complex mental health issue if caused by bingeing. The benefits of having a dog - companionship, caring for a dependent being, love and bonding, exercise, socialising with other dog owners...it's all brilliant.

Sure, but you don’t need to choose to do that over a pub table with a gathering of friends when you’re out for the evening.

@didium disagree, a small group of friends who have known each other since primary school faced with a severely obese friend who is seeking their affirmation that it isn't really a problem seems like a good opportunity to address it.

You're missing the entire point, and quite deliberately so, in order to fat bash really, aren't you.

A person who becomes obese, from any of those factors mentioned (laziness, lack of willpower, and greed) to such that it impacts health, is not a fully sound person. Therefore, there are psychological (which is health) factors, at play. It goes against the whole instinct of any being to survive and remain fit.

A person who won't get out of bed to deal with everyday life, may suffer laziness, and a lack of motivation. WHY, though? It's not just because they are 'lazy and unmotivated'. When those factors impact your life and your health to an unhealthy degree, it's fair to say there are psychological (and thus, health) factors at play, at the crux of the matter. Just not if you're fat, apparently.

Because we still have disgusting members of society who love to spread hate about people's weight challenges in the form of 'lazy, greedy'. Go on, go tell an obese person they're lazy and greedy and see the change you trigger.

After all, all a fat person needs to do, is stop being lazy and greedy. Its infuriatingly that simple. If only it was socially acceptable to tell them this we could rid the world of all the lazy, greedy fat people. Oh wait, we've been doing that for decades - hasn't worked out so well, has it? That's what body positivity should be about - not telling people they are, in other words, worthless because they are fat. A person who feels they're worthless, won't be motivated to change, in most cases.

Utilise a shred of human decency, and common sense, and move away from being frustrated at fat people for being fat, and you may just see things you haven't seen before.

No one, and I mean no one, destroys their health as a goal in life. Poor choices which lead to such weight gain, are absolutely indicative of there being deeper problems at play. Eroding their self esteem will, I daresay, be far more likely to make the person fatter, than thinner.

Overeating to such a degree of obesity or morbid obesity, is health related. If it's not physical, there is psychological factors at play. There are swathes of people with such disordered eating, which results in the obesity you see each day, whom are undiagnosed and receiving no help. And when they try to access that help - are genuinely told by medical professionals that they just 'need to eat less and move more' (speak to a few obese friends about their experience of the healthcare system). Sounds very simple doesn't it - I wonder why it's not working? Obviously it just MUST be because we have swathes of the population who would much prefer to just be obese.

The medical profession you reference is why a dear friends cancer went undiagnosed for so long, until symptoms really progressed. The utter exhaustion and body pain she was complaining about as a young woman (whom was NOWHERE near OP's friends size)- was immediately put down to her being fat, and she was waved out the door with undiagnosed cancer, and not one test being performed on her. She is not a rare case - speak to any fat person about their experience of medical care they received and you'll see it's a severe, common problem.

THIS is why attitudes like yours towards fat people needs to change. It's as downright dangerous as the other end of the spectrum that people are complaining about.

These attitudes are often pushed under the transparent guise of 'care', and it's such an overused excuse.

@Didimum
Well she shouldn't keep banging on about it publicly and asking the OP then.