To think a lot of students won’t be really pushed to achieve the best grades

[shallweorderpizza]

As long as they pass?

I know individual teachers wil care and want their students to achieve but from a cynical data led point of view I think there will be a lot of 4/5 grades that could be 6/7 with some pushing.

What do you mean by ‘pushing’?

Motivation comes in two forms: extrinsic (from outside a person, usually via praise, reward or punishment) and intrinsic (a persons self motivation due to finding something fun or really caring about the task or topic).

Unfortunately for schools, extrinsic motivation can have the opposite effect on humans. It’s called the Sawyer Effect where the reward/praise etc turns the work into a chore. It can work for some people but in the world of psychology intrinsic motivation is widely accepted as the best type for most people in most situations.

This is why the idea of ‘pushing’ is problematic.

The only pathway option available to him was 2 x btec and then the third being maths or English.

In old school it is a good B.

It isn’t the teachers responsibility, this is up to the kids and their parents. People can complain that the classes are too big for as much individual attention required to ensure each pupil achieves their own goals, but the reality is that once you’re out of school then people don’t “push” you to achieve your goals - you’re motivated and able to ask for help, or you aren’t.

Secondary teacher here - every child has a target grade based on their SATs results and teachers are judged on whether they get that target, it’s not just about the number of 4s and 5s you get. So kids with a target of, say a 6 or a 7 will be pushed to get that higher grade…sometimes to their detriment in my opinion, as targets can be wrong and it’s ridiculous to have the same target for all subjects.

I’d also like to echo the comments above… I gave out extra work and offered to mark anything extra they did, offered my time before and after school, ran unpaid revision sessions in half term… very few students took up the opportunities and it shows in their results unfortunately.

My son took his GCSE's this year and the school were amazing. They had extra remedial/revision sessions before and after school from October half term onwards. They ran half day sessions in most subjects during the half term and Easter breaks. As other teachers on here have said they do, his teachers offered to mark his additional work.

These additional sessions were really well attended by the children

All the extra effort from the school and the teachers was probably the difference between 4/5 and 5/6's for a lot of the students.

The sixth forms we visited wanted 5's in English Lang and Maths and 6's in the chosen A Level subjects, except Maths where they wanted 7 and 8 for Further Maths.

4 and 5 are the old C grade
6 is B
7,8,9 are A grades (like A-, A and A+ in very old money).

To want a resit for someone who got a grade 7 in maths is very strange. Unless perhaps they want to do further maths.

YANBU. One of mine was in a school system in a different country for years 9/10/11. Before that, in UK, was in bottom set for everything. In UK was well behaved, but on the ‘flight path’ to achieve low GCSE grades and as long as remained on that ‘flight path’ there was no real concern.

Had their backside kicked somewhat in the state international school and ended up with 7/8 for IGCSEs English (which was done there as an extra). Now in college and made to do GCSE maths alongside their course. Has always hated maths, but wanted to get it over and done with.

College maths tutor spent the class either discussing a disruptive student’s identity issues 🙄 or playing with her phone under the desk. So my teenager, with the help of YouTube videos, past papers, work books and bloody mindedness, sat at the kitchen table and taught themselves the maths GCSE syllabus in less than a year and got a 5. Just wonder what could have been a accomplished with proper teaching and the ability to be entered for the higher paper rather than the foundation.

I’m looking at the achievements of the pupils at the Michaela School on social media at the moment and wondering why it can’t be replicated across the rest of the state secondaries. I think an awful lot of the issues are down to behaviour and classroom disruption. If the children are motivated at home (no matter how wealthy or poor the background) and poor behaviour stamped on at school, that’s half the battle won imo.

Most schools have been good by running interventions, providing reading lists, marking exams that kids do at home fir revision and so on but it's not up to the schools how hard kids work. That has to come from the kids themselves and the push has to come from parents.

Around me everyone is pushing...

The kids are very motivated and the parents and school strongly encourage.

Our school has put in far more revision support that I had 40 years ago!! DS tells me that few kids went to the revision sessions, especially in maths. I would not describe him as the hardest worker but he did knuckle down before Easter and staff were pleased with his attitude.

I hope staff faced with parents’ emails on why their DC did not do better have prepared a standard response on what support was offered and that their little child chose not to attend. I would love to be able to do that in HE.

We are in position and as you say, very frustrated. Witnessed my parents work themselves out of poverty, we were quite poor when I was little, my parents now live in a 5 bed house with grounds, several 5* holidays each year etc. Saw the rewards that hard work can bring (with a bit of good fortune but also some hurdles to overcome) which motivated me to work hard. My girls have grown up very comfortable, never had to worry about us having enough money (we sre comfortable rather than wealthy) , seem to have an attitude that don't need to put more than a very average level of effort in, as we will always be there
to support them

To want a resit for someone who got a grade 7 in maths is very strange. Unless perhaps they want to do further maths.

It's a computer says No situation. It was my husband that went and I think they were both so shell shocked that they just kind of accepted it. I like to think I would have argued, but I too probably would have sat there like a fish.

He got a 4 for English, so whilst not the 5, it is still a pass.

That's what parents are there for. They can help their kids if they really care.

For the next couple of years there will be no progress 8, so it will be interesting to see whether this results in more focus in schools on grade 5 English and Maths and less focus on progress for all. It won’t affect what I do in my subject (history). My department prides itself on getting excellent outcomes for the brightest students in mixed ability classes in a non-selective school. 50% of our cohort got a 7 or better this year. We don’t focus more on grade 5s than 9s and that won’t change for us.

@Takoneko oh that's interesting about progress 8, I don't know anything about it really (except our school's is good) as a layman, will that mean kids are pushed less?

Just googled that it's to do with the lack of KS2 SATs scores in Covid which makes sense, will be interesting to see what schools do instead.

Yeah I mean running revision sessions every morning for the past 6 months, teaching them how to answer exam questions, doing mocks, revision class sessions, going over content, targeting students who are working below their predicted grades really isn't pushing them enough is it?

Don't recognise this at all. In DDs y11 cohort a 6/7 is seen as pretty average and some are gutted when they got 8s rather than 9s. This is equally destructive IMO, HOW have we got to a stage where an A is no longer acceptable.

Bog standard city comp btw. Not private / grammar.

Surely the drive has to come from the child and to a lesser extent supported by their parents? The school lay on all sorts of support dd2 year 10 has sought out a further maths class run by a teacher its really helping. Hardly any kids in the class though it’s open to all.

HOW have we got to a stage where an A is no longer acceptable.

When they decided 30 years ago that an A* was then the top grade and it all unravelled from there.

You're very wrong. Schools are expected to meet targets based on stats when they start secondary which give their expected grades, amd expected to exceed them.

In theory it could mean that schools put more resources into getting 5s in English and Maths as that will be the headline but I think most won’t change much. Attainment 8 will still be published and schools won’t want that to drop either. I think most will continue on as they are now.

Most schools have a much more complex intake than Michaela. It is impossible for it to be replicated across all schools as there are limited grades available at each level.

Schools provide students with the teaching and provision to get top grades, but some students are not capable of it and some choose not to work hard enough. In my opinion, they put in a lot of effort with resources, revision classes at lunch time and after school, spoon feeding them with the right way to answer the questions, offering to look at papers they've done at home, always there if they want to ask a question. But a high amount of students don't take them up on it. Also, parents can have as many conversations as they like about studying and the importance of it, but children only listen if they want to. It's up to them, basically.

Let's be realistic.
Not every child is smart and motivated.
And society really does not need mass of A* students rushing to get any degree and then sit around as there is limited amount of jobs that require university education.
And trust me,no one wants to spend life between 4 years and 22 only to end up as graduate stuck in manual low paid job.

We try our best but students and parents need to do their bit. Usually it’s a mixture of natural talent and good parenting (aside from the teaching). A lot of people use pass/fail language which has led students to settle for a 4. I try to push them but they say they are happy with a 4. What do you think we do? Stop marking their work once they’ve reached their target?