To think a lot of students won’t be really pushed to achieve the best grades

[shallweorderpizza]

As long as they pass?

I know individual teachers wil care and want their students to achieve but from a cynical data led point of view I think there will be a lot of 4/5 grades that could be 6/7 with some pushing.

Who are you talking about doing the pushing? If you are talking about schools, they are measured on their progress so they very much need the students capable of 6/7s to achieve them. Students and parents are a different matter I suppose

I think it’s hard in a big classroom setting to really work with individual students and push them to achieve their best (which may not be the same as a target.)

That’s a different point to it being cynically data led though - of course big classes present more challenges when trying to get students to achieve. This isn’t to say schools are happy with students only achieving a 4/5 pass regardless of ability - they very much need students to achieve levels of progress rather than a certain grade: the new grading system was brought in to stop the cynical data driven attitude of everyone needs a C

I think as well at that age children must be self motivated.

Schools want children to do their best - league tables get published, better grades will encourage more applicants

Surely the parents/guardians also have to push and encourage? Cannot be all down to the school

Two points:

My school, like many, do "Aiming for 6" sessions, so they do try and push pupils over that gap

Secondly, foundation papers have a highest grade of 5. It is better for many, including my ds, to get a 5 on foundation then take the higher paper and potentially get a 3/4 in the hope of a 6.

I think there still are some schools though that resource to get as many passing as possible rather than pushing on the brightest. I was looking at our local school’s progress 8 and it is positive (just) for middle attainers and negative for lower and higher. Other schools have quite a different profile. I’m keen to see if the stats look the same once they’re released this year as the data seems to be backing up what I’m hearing anecdotally about the school (which I don’t love).

I do agree with you, i think there is a real lack of ambition amongst some people. Ive noticed lots of posters on hear saying that basically as long as your child passes you should be happy with their results, despitethem being capable of much higher grades with a bit of effort. However, most schools near me also publish how many students are achieving grades 7-9 & 8-9 and any 'pushy parent' will be looking at these scores and how they compare to other schools.

Remember not everyone can get the higher grades. The board use all the grades

Absolutely, it is all sounding a bit Michael Gove-ish and everyone needing to do better than average.

I think by the time GCSEs come around, then the die is kind of set for the amount of effort a child is going put in, and their age means they need to be pretty self sufficient wet revision by that age. Also effort is relative: if you don't normally do your homework: reading your notes through once feels like you've made a lot of effort!

The ability to push your kids and influence them ideally happens much earlier, ideally from parents and teachers, so that by the time GCSEs come around they want to work hard. Not saying it's as easy as that though..! Personality type also has a massive part to play, as does maturity

I work with young people in a healthcare capacity & some are very bright & will achieve well, some are physically & mentally unwell thinking they can't achieve a pass at all, at exam time. I tell them all the same thing, you try your best & that's enough. If you fail your life isn't over, you try again. It depends on the abilities but also mental state of the child on whether pushing them is good or not.

Unfortunately a lot of people are very lazy and won’t take opportunities offered.
I’m a teacher and examiner and specialise in gcse. I told my class this year that I would mark any extra papers they did at home (this is a service that would cost you £20 a time) I also ran some free masterclasses. 3 children out of 30 took me up on my offers.

At that age, it’s not down to teachers (or parents) ‘pushing’. Either the kids themselves bust a gut or don’t. And some of that will come down to what the stakes are.

I worked desperately hard because I knew education was my route out of poverty. The stakes were huge. My DS is too young for this yet, but I see friends, now prosperous but also from very poor backgrounds, feeling frustrated their children are less self-motivated. Because the stakes are lower. The next generation didn’t grow up literally hungry, knowing their way out was via exam success and scholarships. And obviously we’re thrilled they’re not motivated by attempting to get out of poverty.

Well we have to be realistic as to what teachers can achieve and do within the resources and class sizes they have. But I have found if the parents/pupils are proactive, teachers respond well to that. My DS (Y8) struggled with science last year, teachers didn't raise any concerns as he was passing but he wasn't meeting his aspirational grades (his school set target and aspirational grades), and as he is aiming for a STEM career it's an important subject for him. So I raised at parents' evening (collaboratively), DS went to the science teacher outside of classes, got given extra work (teacher really went above beyond in offering to mark said work as well which we appreciated but didn't expect) and he ended up getting the highest mark in his class for his summer term assessment. We've had a similar experience with English.

I'm a secondary teacher and I really agree with this. So much apathy from students who missed out on grades of 7 or 4 because they just couldn't be bothered.

The motivation needs to come from the students by GCSE.

Schools are measured on students' progress from KS2 SATS. So I don't agree that students won't be pushed as long as they pass.

Outside of the world of mumsnet where anything under a seven is seen as a fail GCSE,s are just a stepping stone grade 4/5,s are acceptable and get kids on level three courses

Completely. I ran revision lessons every week of this year and had about 13 regulars from 150 odd students. Now am getting emails from parents saying what could have been done to improve their kid’s results.

Who, do you think, should do the pushing?
What, do you think, should that pushing look like?

The most important input is from parents at primary so by the time they get to GCSEs it's just what they do. Schools aren't magical places and teachers aren't magical beings. I have parents who won't even read with their child for 5 mins a day 3 days a week. There's not lot secondary school cam dpif the parents just can't he arsed.

I know my daughter's school put on extra sessions for GCSE and on Saturday mornings for A Level. She went to every single one that was offered. Some kids didn't go to any. Schools can't do it for them.

If the pupils want 6/7 grades instead of 4/5 grades, they need to be proactive.

This ovviouslyndosnt apply the same to children with additional needs for whom additional support systems should already he in place of necessary.

At some point the kids and parents have to start taking responsibility.

I work in a school in a low-achieving area.

I tell all my classes that I value effort over achievement. It's no use to me if a child capable of a grade 7 achieves a 6 because they put little/ no effort into their work, while I will always have more time and respect for the student targeted a grade 3 who does their utmost but still only gets a 2.

High-achieving students in top sets come in 4 flavours:
-works hard, achieves well - around 20-25%
-works hard, doesn't achieve - around 10-15%
-doesn't work hard, doesn't achieve well - around 10-15%
-doesn't work hard, achieves well but could do better with effort - around half the class, if not most.

Schools do an awful lot to push those students. Afternoon intervention runs most of Y11, sometimes even Saturdays and holidays. The former, even if compulsory, will have some students skipping/ having other things to do, the latter are barely attended. Homework - I'd say even in my top set, 20% regularly don't complete it. I set different revision techniques as homework throughout KS4. I still get a number of students not attempting the given technique, saying it doesn't work for them and they made notes/ did a poster/ made whatever is low effort instead.

We analyse exams and exam results with classes, go over exam techniques, review grade boundaries, give resources/ links/ QR codes for revision, literally give lessons on how to revise effectively. But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water...

Schools do enough. More than enough, and certainly far more than I've ever had when I was a student. Parents should do more, including ensuring their children go to bed at a reasonable time and eat decent food, let alone check homework/ address behaviour in class. Responsibility also needs to be back with children rather than almost solely on the teacher (I've had many a child tell me it's MY responsibility to MAKE them achieve). Then we might see change.

Oh, and of course that still doesn't stop grade boundaries being determined by % of students who achieved a certain mark.

Whilst I do agree, I am finding that choices are limited with grades around a 5. Ds's first choice college won't allow him to do any A levels and want him to do GCSE maths or English as a resit, despite passing both (Inc a 7 for maths)

@ShamblesRock they want him to resit maths when he got a 7? I'm new to this grading system but I thought 7 was a good grade, better than a C was?