To be so impressed about how clean Tokyo (Japan)

[Travelfun]

First time in Tokyo and I am so impressed at how clean and organised it is. It is a pleasure to go out, I thought I was going to find a busy, chaotic city.

I live in London and can’t wait to head home when I go into town. I wish we could keep London and other British cities this clean.I think we got lots to learn from the Japanese.

Why can we achieve this cleanliness in London?

Our council, like many, have been doing No Mow May (and June and July and half of August).

Everyone was moaning about it.

Now the verges, etc, have been cut back and it's exposed all the shitty litter underneath it. It looked better overgrown!

Japanese culture is built on respect. Too many people in the UK are born of the me, me, me attitude where someone else will pick up after them because that's what they're paid to do.

I am an employer and had to moan at my staff not that long ago that just because we have an office cleaner, it doesn't mean they can leave the kitchen looking like a shithole and not tidy up after themselves. It's not all of them, obviously, but those that leave a mess are totally disrespectful to the rest of us.

Oh, but to add, I went to Marseille last year and it was awful. It made London look like Japan in comparison. There was dog shit everywhere and the streets were absolutely filthy. So, London may not be great, but other supposedly civilised places are worse.

Cultural and social homogeneity bring some benefits evidently. Nonetheless if you don’t like the litter start at home and pick it up. Litter pickets on Amazon and bring a bag out with you. If enough people pick up litter it will catch on.

Absolutely. The place has an absolutely horrific workaholic culture as well, people work ridiculous hours and it's not unheard of for people to work themselves to death.

There's horrific pressure to confirm to societal norms and "respect your elders" in a way that can make life miserable and difficult for many.

Don't even get me started on how sexualised young girls are as well. It's pretty revolting.

High pressure to achieve. When I was studying there, a young man set himself alight in dorms because he failed his exam. Any career setback for a man is a potential trigger. Historically, suicide in Japan was a way to restore honour to the family of a man whose actions brought shame on himself. I am guessing, the practice is still engrained in the Japanese society.
It is quite common in the West as well where a middle-aged man is at a far greater risk of suicide than any other population group.

@YogaForDummies That is absolute bollocks. People are not littering more in the UK because of immigration.

Anyway, I can see from previous posts you've been a rioter apologist so I won't bother arguing further. Just know we see your racism and xenophobia.

People seem to think that's a fair price to pay for clean streets. I certainly don't. I know for a fact I'd hate living in a culture and society like Japan. It's almost certainly a more dangerous and unpleasant place for women to live than here.

I think it's because there is an insinuation from the OP that Japan is somehow a utopian place because of how clean and orderly it is.

People are just pointing out (rightly) that it may do some things well, but it still has problems, just like anywhere.

It's easy to visit somewhere for a few days and imagine it to be a lovely pace to live.

Seriously, what are you talking about? We are having a discussion about why the UK is grubby (like a lot of countries around the world) and all you're doing is calling people racist with no evidence. Immigration comes with issues, it comes with benefits too. But it does break down communities and leads to society being more fractious. This is a fact and you've done nothing to argue against it, only tried to name call posters having a discussion.

Who seems to think that?
I don't see anyone on here who thinks that. These are two very separate issues, though. Misogyny and high suicide rates are not correlated with cleanliness, are they? Nor are they a cause for it. Both misogyny and high risks of suicide among men exist in the UK... it's not reflected in the state of our streets.
Strawman argument, once again.

Well, quite a lot of people seem to be saying that Japan is some sort of glorious utopia because it's clean. It's actually not, and that's a fair thing to point out. It's clean because it's very regimented and heirarchical, and that comes with a whole bunch of problems.

It's not a straw man argument at all. Society is made up of many things. I shared a flat with two Japanese women when I was a student, and they both absolutely loathed how sexist and unequal Japanese society was. One of them was determined to stay in the UK - filthy streets and all & as a result.

We thought the same about Copenhagen. Such a clean city.
What are we all doing wrong in this country?

I was there in February and thought it looked pretty slick and span, particularly compared to the last time I’d been there, when it was still very scuzzy, had high crime and unemployment, and the port and docks hadn’t been developed.

Not a lot, actually.

Most European cities have a real problem with graffiti and petty vandalism on public transport, far more than we have here. Have you ever been to Paris? Good luck taking a ride on the Metro without either getting your stuff nicked or getting groped.

London is one of the safest cities in the world and I've never noticed it being particularly dirty.

Agreed. There’s not necessarily any direct causal relationship between Japan’s sexist traditionalism and its clean streets, but it doesn’t seem unlikely that its culture of rules, hierarchy and regimentation has some form of relationship to both. In which case I’ll wade knee-deep in litter for adequate political representation for women, larger female participation in the workforce, and a smaller pay gap.

Absolutely. People seem to love some of the fruits of regimented societies like that, and fair enough, given how chaotic and shabby Britain is at times, I get it. It's a national scandal in Japan if a train is 30 seconds late, and I can see why that sort of attitude and culture appeals.

But...it comes at a very, very high price. It isn't one you have to pay if you're just on holiday, but you do if you live there, and I think there's a lot of seriously miserable people behind the efficient and polite facade. If you don't fit in with that culture, you're in big, big trouble.

There's no way in a million years I'd pay that price for streets that are a bit cleaner than ours.

Not sure why we have to pay the price of more suicides just by using our tax pounds to fund more street cleaning as opposed to propping up the tories.
Bring our services back to public ownership, tax the billionaires, and we are good.

Yep - went to Paris in May this year, but only used the Metro once as walked the city mostly.
So - as a consequence didn’t experience any petty theft on the public transport.
Did notice that Paris wasn’t wonderfully clean, but not too grubby either.
But my post was about Copenhagen, not Paris, and how clean it was as a city compared to British cities( which it most definitely is). There’s a bit of graffiti, but the city is maintained well and hardly any litter at all. There is an order that isn’t apparent in Britain. I liked it.

One reason why Japanese cities are so clean, and apologies if this has already been stated, is that Japanese don’t eat and drink on the street as a whole. Their custom is ti sit and eat. Hence not much rubbish from take away food.

I think a lot of western countries now are completely focused on individuals, no one is taught they need to behave for others.

I didn’t find Copenhagen particularly clean. It felt a bit run down in places.

Did you also notice how there were no potholes?

Japan is one of my favourite places to visit. I love the cleanliness, the helpfulness and the honesty. Watching people leave handbags and phones unattended while they go to the bathroom in city centre coffee shops was amazing.
I haven't been for a couple of years but I still catch myself thinking 'oh that wouldn't be like that' when I see things like a dirty train or litter left behind in an auditorium.

It's not a perfect culture though. I find the widespread depiction of women as cute little girls a bit much.

I think they just must give more priority to cleaning and being clean. Even in the few novels I've read translated from Japanese the characters seem to do quite a lot of cleaning.

Whereabouts? Didn’t experience many run down areas at all and we only came home a few days ago.

Oh apart from Christiania, which is famously a bit run down as self governed.

I wonder how much the men clean in Japan? I’m generalising massively but my experience in the UK is that most women clean up after themselves at home, work, and they are less likely to litter (the latter is based on my seeing only men throw things out of their car window). Are there differences in standards between Japan and the UK between the sexes, do you think?