To tell my friend she's not acting in the best interests of her DD

[Rosiecidar]

A friend of mine has an adult daughter, nearly 30. DD. DD lives at home and went to uni locally and has never lived away, never had a boyfriend and barely any friends. DD used to be good friends with my DD from.school but that's drifted. My friend is pretty negative to men in a romantic context since her divorce 15 years ago and been steadfastly single. My friend does everything with her daughter, as in takes her daughter to everything she wants to do, occasionally seeing other friends. For holidays she goes away with her daughter maybe 3 x a year.A few months ago DD told me she didn't want to go away with her mum anymore and wanted to do her own thing, but when she told my friend she was planning a trip my friend said she would go as well. It's none of my business but I feel so annoyed with my friend for holding her DD back and not encouraging her to get out and enjoy life instead it seems my friend would be happy she spends her life as a companion. It just feels so wrong. My daughter used to be good friends with the DD but isn't any more as she said they have nothing in common ...I have tried talking about it but my friend just normalises it. It makes me annoyed and I feel my friend is self centered AIBU ?

I understand where you're coming from, OP.

I adore my adult dd's company. We are close and she is absolutely my favourite companion in the whole world, but it would be utterly selfish and unhealthy if I did not want and encourage her to have an independent life of her own. (Not that mine actually needs any encouragement 😆). The daughter needs to build her own life with her own friends and family etc. And personally I think that applies even if the dc is neurodivergent etc unless they really aren't capable. We parents won't be around forever and we need to think about how they will manage when we're gone.

That said, I'm not sure if there is much to be gained from saying anything. It doesn't sound likely that the friend would be particularly receptive, but it partly depends on the nature of your friendship and how honest you can be with each other. Personally, I would want a good friend to be honest with me if she felt that I was doing my dd a disservice, if it was said kindly and with genuine concern - it would be hard to hear but I hope I would listen and reflect. I think I only have one friend that I could truly rely on to be honest with me about stuff like this, but we have the kind of relationship where we can say anything to each other. A lot of people would prefer not to take the risk and I understand that. And some people just can't take any negative feedback, no matter how well intentioned it is. You are probably the best judge of how you will react, so go with your gut!

Definitely not autistic? At 4 years old? Ok, so you don't understand and don't want to learn, that's fine. The fact the child is under SLT make autism more likely btw. Professionals being 'concerned' about parenting is standard fare for neurodivergent families - there's a history there within the medical establishment that goes back to the 1950s. You see, it's much easier to blame the mother than to actually help. Can you not see why we might isolate ourselves?

Yes. Didn’t Queen Victoria do his with her youngest daughter when Prince Albert died? She wasn’t allowed to get married until she was nearly 30 (which was ancient in those days), the Queen gave her the silent treatment for 6+ months after the engagement announcement, she was required to continue to live in the palace—she wasn’t allowed to move away. And when she became a widow at nearly 40, she stepped back into her role as the Queen’s crutch. All very dysfunctional…

I think this is the right way to go. You might lose a friend, but helping the daughter out of this horrible situation could be worth it.

Yes and I think this is far more likely than the daughter being neurodivergent. She's just been conditioned to be that way.

It could of course be a mix of both.

The mother is doing her daughter no favours whatsoever. But what will you gain by speaking to your friend? Nothing. She thinks she's doing nothing wrong. Questioning the way she interacts with her adult DD will not go down well and in all likelihood nothing will change (except you will lose a friend).

The infantilising of adults has become absurd and it can be truly damaging. This case seems particularly egregious, but as a university lecturer I frequently see the results of similar (though less extreme) infantilisation.

It’s all very well yawning, but like it or not, this isn’t actually OP’s business, so she WILL be overstepping. Whether she thinks she is justified in overstepping is another matter, but she needs to be prepared for the possibility that her friend will take exception if she keeps pushing.

The problem here is that, even if OP does manage to get through to her friend, the friend’s daughter will have gone from her mother making decisions for her to her mother’s friend intervening on her behalf. She still won’t be making decisions or taking action of her own. What happens when she has to push back on something else? Does she get OP to take control again? When does she ever learn to speak up for herself?

I hear you OP - some parents seem to require their DC to never leave (for company? Validation? To feel needed?) and are adept at making said DC dependent or powerless. I think the age of the DC is irrelevant- she has never known differently and if not born with a strong independent spirit, may have fallen into this dysfunctional codependency without realising it. I have seen one example with it happening with a woman (age 37) who will now never be independent and am extremely concerned for my DD's friend (18) where the pattern seems to be emerging.

And I have absolutely no idea how to help. It is absolutely not my business but I care about the girl and am worried for her, and that she will never be able to see out of this toxic all-encompassing 'loving' family. I try to give her opportunities to be independent alongside my DD, but it is progressively more difficult due to reasons I can't elaborate on.

Really hard, wish I knew the words to say to break the spell!

I think there is a danger if you step in for the daughter because she can’t assert herself and she does manage to break away she is going to fall into another unhealthy relationship patterns and will not have had the experience of asserting herself. I think the best thing you can do for her is find ways to build up her confidence, and maybe remind her in your language that she is an adult.

The fact the child is under SLT make autism more likely btw

Not in this case, he has a specific congenital diagnosis. There are other disabilities in the world that are not autism, and which don’t benefit from social isolation and avoidance of medical care.

I think her DD maybe needs to put more energy into meeting someone that would be good for her and change the whole situation and dynamic but I'm not really sure it's your place to get involved , put it this way are you willing to risk the friendship ?

It's really unfair on the daughter and it's probably really hard for her to say no to her mum. Mum sees no issue, her needs are being fulfilled, and she has a companion, it's very selfish on the mothers part to hold her daughter back like this.
But it's also very hard for the daughter to change something that has become an expectation (her mum assuming she will always go on holiday with her).
I,m not sure you can say anything directly to her mum, without causing a rift in your friendship as she's not going to take kindly to essentially hearing shes a shit parent, however nicely you try and phrase it. She will also be extremely reluctant to confront it as she loses her daughter as a crutch.
Can you support the daughter instead to give her the courage to say no next time her mum invites herself along, or to make plans without her mum and present it as a fait accompli, at that point you could back the daughter up,

I think one of the problems that I have is her daughter is a large part of her life of course. And as they pretty much do everything together if she is talking to me about pretty much everything except world affairs her daughter will be mentioned. Very hard to navigate.

Her mum conditioned her to share with her and be codependant since she was top 15y old.
Probably even from the younger age.
DD needs help to see this is not normal.

I was 45 when I finally dared to tell my DM that I disagreed with her (my dh, dc and myself never went on a trip without my DM, so I never had to tell her I want a trip without her) and you won't believe the row that ensued, etc. I was called a traitor. So, no, it is not easy for some people in some families in some circumstances to establish a boundary with DM. So I think OP should just help this poor DD and tell her friend what she thinks.

A few months ago DD told me she didn't want to go away with her mum anymore and wanted to do her own thing, but when she told my friend she was planning a trip my friend said she would go as well

This is how you can help the daughter - practically. The DD’s first mistake was telling her mother about her plans. Explain to the DD she needs to find a trip, book it and say absolutely nothing to her mother until it’s too late for her to go too. If that means she tells her the day before she goes, then so be it. She can then explain to her mother that she didn’t tell her until the last minute because she didn’t want her pushing in and coming as well, as she would like some independence.

If your friend doesn’t seem to care about the stifling effect of all this on her DD, maybe you could frame it as making her look incapable/in need of support/sad/boring/laughable - whatever will make your friend think and be put off appearing like that. She sounds very selfish, so she’s probably quite vain as well, so maybe the idea that others are sniggering at her or judging her might work better than appealing to her to think about her DD.

To me that sounds deliberate on the part of the mother, as in actively wanting to curtail her DD's life choices, perhaps with an eye to future care (you don't mention a DH who might perhaps make this scenario less likely)

I've known a few who've done the same and it doesn't tend to end happily, so probably the best you can do is gently encourage the DD to spead her wings a little more - though if the mum catches on to this it could well be the end of your friendship

OP, I don’t know if there’s much you can do realistically as they appear to have a very unhealthy co-dependent relationship and it’s unlikely that the daughter will ever break free if she doesn’t have any confidence in herself.

Sadly I know 2 grown adults who have lived like this and had no independent life of their own.

One is now in his late 50’s and still lives with his widowed mum. He also went to University and briefly had a girlfriend in his twenties but she found the relationship with his mum too claustrophobic and they split up. She was a lovely normal woman and it’s such a shame he didn’t stand up to his mum and break free. He also left his professional job as he was too afraid to attempt to climb the career ladder and works in a low paid minimum wage job now. On the surface his mum is lovely but after his sibling left home, I don’t think she fancied living alone as she already had some health issues and John organises his life entirely around her needs. I do wonder what will become of him when she dies?

The second one was a colleague at work. She always looked about 20yrs older than she was due to the dowdy way she dressed. Very conscientious in her work but had no outside interests at all. She was very much tied to home and bought the house next door to her parents when it came up for sale as her dad put pressure on her saying it was her duty to look after them in their old age. Her dad’s sister also lived a few doors away on the same steeet but instead of supporting my colleague she agreed with the father as she also wanted her own free support person. Both parents and Aunty are now dead and my colleague (early 50’s) is planning to sell up all 3 houses and move into a retirement village. Again, she’s a lovely person who’s never been allowed to live her own life.

She is capable of having that conversation with her mother should she wish ...are you sure you aren't projecting?

This woman who has been a parent for 30 years, who became a divorcee when her child was 15yo, knows EXACTLY what she’s doing to that child and doesn’t need to telling re best interests. She knows she’s acting in her own best interests exclusively, and will be telling herself that as they’re both happy there’s no problem.

There’s nothing you can say or do to get inside that codependent relationship as a mere friend. It has to come from one of them and you will find zero motivation to change from the mum. She knows, she’ll be terrified as she’ll have to change everything for the worse. She is prioritising herself, knowingly.

There’s a special place in hell for parents who use their children for their own benefit. It’s amongst the most selfish things a human can do.

Nothing worse than parents like this.
The poor adult child knows no different.

I don't think you saying anything is going to change your friends behavior.

I've got something similar in my family.
The adult child moved out but only one road away.

Adult child has no life skills and calls her mum for everything, light bulb blown, dripping tap, bit of mould etc.

This has happened in my own family, but the autism is used to stop any chance of independent living, not helping to live as independent a life as possible with a bit of extra help. It's used as a means of control and its tragic to have watched it happen.

God that was me apart from the sharing a bed. Didn’t go to uni as was panicked to be away from home even though home was a shit show. op I’d say support the daughter rather than tell the mother, she’s been conditioned so give her confirmation she’s not being unreasonable as her mum will try and tell her otherwise.

hmm perhaps not she’s been conditioned to Believe this is normal. That’s like saying why don’t people controlled by their spouses / partners just leave.

Support the daughter to stand up for herself don’t talk to your friend as it might backfire and make things difficult for her daughter . I stood up to my mother for first time aged 50 and challenged her she hasn’t spoken to me since