To tell my friend she's not acting in the best interests of her DD

[Rosiecidar]

A friend of mine has an adult daughter, nearly 30. DD. DD lives at home and went to uni locally and has never lived away, never had a boyfriend and barely any friends. DD used to be good friends with my DD from.school but that's drifted. My friend is pretty negative to men in a romantic context since her divorce 15 years ago and been steadfastly single. My friend does everything with her daughter, as in takes her daughter to everything she wants to do, occasionally seeing other friends. For holidays she goes away with her daughter maybe 3 x a year.A few months ago DD told me she didn't want to go away with her mum anymore and wanted to do her own thing, but when she told my friend she was planning a trip my friend said she would go as well. It's none of my business but I feel so annoyed with my friend for holding her DD back and not encouraging her to get out and enjoy life instead it seems my friend would be happy she spends her life as a companion. It just feels so wrong. My daughter used to be good friends with the DD but isn't any more as she said they have nothing in common ...I have tried talking about it but my friend just normalises it. It makes me annoyed and I feel my friend is self centered AIBU ?

I'm usually the type to say mind your own but the DD seems to be reaching out to you for some help.

I would let her know that if she wants to tell her mum she is going to this trip alone or doesn't want her mum there then you are more than happy to be there when she has this conversation and willing to back her up if she asks you for your opinion.
A bit staged but hopefully will build her confidence and also shine a light on what your friend is doing.

This sounds incredibly sad and suffocating.
I'd have a chat with my friend. Hopefully they can break this codependency.

But you're also infantalising a 30 year old woman, stepping in as if she's an incapable child. You need to recognise that you too see her this way. I expect she's neurodivergent, possibly the mum is too hence the dependent relationship. Is the daughter happy with this life? Other than one incident - which may be her saying what she thinks you want to hear - has she indicated to you that she wants more independence or is this based on your perception of what she 'should' want?

Relationships like this are not unusual between neurodivergent mothers/ daughters or between sisters. Life can be pretty brutal, unless it's an issue for the daughter I see no harm in them taking solace with each other. I suspect you see your daughter as an ideal that this other woman should aspire to. If so, stop it.

I know a mother and daughter like this as well. The daughter is now about 38ish now I think. The daughter was my friend years ago and she went to uni and lived in a flat etc all fine back then.
After uni she moved home and for whatever reason never seemed to get a decent job. She had part time jobs but nothing that stuck.
Sadly most of the daughters friends have drifted now as every time she was invited anywhere she brought her mum along uninvited. It changed the mood of events. We didn't really know her mum and she wasn't our friend. They'd also argue a lot.
I have no idea if there's any additional needs there. It's possible there is. But regardless it's not a healthy dynamic to go from being fairly independent and having friends to being completely involved in each other's lives to the point neither of them go anywhere without the other. She used to tell me back in our 20s how she wanted to get married and have kids one day. She hasn't had a boyfriend since then. I worry what will happen when the mother is no longer around. She will be very isolated.

I think this happens more than people think, I know a few adults (male and female) that still live with their parent/s and do everything with them at the age of 30+. It’s not good, both of them need to have their own lives and not be reliant on each other. The daughter needs to know how to fend for herself, one day her mother will die and she will be alone.

Im not sure what you can do about it though as really it’s not your business and at the age of 30 she can talk for herself.

Have you ever come across the concept of the smothering mother? This is what it looks like... YANBU.

Have you tried talking about what your DD is doing with your friend, and then turning the conversation to when her DD is going to move out? What's her response if so?

I’m know somebody like this, and what happened was as soon as the mother died she found a boyfriend and married, and had a baby who she is now repeating history with - she’s a SAHM and rarely leaves the house due to her anxiety, she has no friends, her DC is still breastfed at 4 (not an issue in isolated), still bedshares, and her DC has selective mutism with everyone except her. Fuck knows what will happen when DC starts school, she is already making noises about homeschooling.

It's abusive really, people say unhealthy and it is but at the core it's an abusive relationship.

The posters talking about an unhealthy dynamic really have no idea what life is like for a neurodivergent woman - many of us would love an education, a career, a family. We may well talk about it, it's a fantasy - the reality is VERY different. Work, dating, social situations - the world can be a horrible place - that's an unhealthy dynamic. Yet your concern is closeness to a mother. Yes, these lives can become enmeshed, concerns about isolation are valid. But you really don't understand the alternative. And OP, this woman may have experienced a bad time at uni or at work - perhaps that's why she sticks to her mother. You have no idea but reading this, I have an inkling that the issue is not a "controlling mother" Leave them be, they don't need to deal with your judgement, that's not friendship and stop measuring the worth of other people's lives.

I think I am probably guilty of seeing the daughter as younger than she is. I gave one example but there's loads. Whether the daughter is happy I don't know. I don't see my DD life as having a role model life but I do want her to take opportunities and experience as much of life as she can. If she was holding back because of me, or my needs were influencing my support and guidance when asked then I would think that wrong.

Years ago I worked with a lovely young man who was like this. He was intelligent, kind and reasonable looking but never had a girlfriend/boyfriend because he literally did everything with his parents. Lived with them, went out with them, on holidays etc. All of the time he was not in work was spent together.
When he was in his fifties they both died and he had a breakdown and had to leave work. I saw him a few weeks ago and it’s so sad. At almost 60 he is like a scared little child; I felt like I almost had to coax him to talk.

her DC is still breastfed at 4 (not an issue in isolated),

It definitely is an issue in isolation (assuming this is what you mean). Breastfeeding at 4 years old? If you think it isn't, then nothing else you complained about in your post is an issue for sure. They pale in comparison to this.

See, this is why posters deciding if other people's lifestyle is good or bad is subjective.

I agree. Well said.

Autism - runs in families, selective mutism is not uncommon. Mothers do not cause autism by bed sharing, being close to their children or any other parenting practices. Stop blaming mothers FFS and support your 'friends'.

What happens when the mother dies ?

I don’t think you need to be harsh with your friend, but you do need to have a word. I know lots of people think you should stay out of it, but I believe that friends support each other to make good choices.

The friend is a single woman and could do with branching out a bit. Maybe you could go with her on a retreat somewhere and allow her daughter to do something different. Sometimes when people are away from home it’s easier to get perspective and make changes.

Agreed.

Weird how posters here think their life is happier because they do this or that. If she's happy with her life, she's fine.

It's odd that most people who actually complain about their lives all over the internet and irl are those who live the usual socially-engineered way they prescribe to others.

I thought the daughter was making noises about wanting independence?

What if she doesn't? What if she dies first? So many what ifs. Be happy now and hope for the best. If they could do more, maybe they would have.

People die. Life goes on. She'll find a way like every other person whose parents have died, including children. She's 30 so she's better off in that respect compared to kids.

Some people who live the "approved" way - away from their parents - still lose their minds and the will to live when their parents die, so I don't see why this one will be a big deal if it happens or be any different. She may surprise you too.

If she needs your help, then help her with what she needs. If she doesn't, she could be happy. Not unusual for some people to be completely satisfied that way.

So you are saying if there is a additional need the person shouldn't miss out on life.

Well, no, but in practice it's trickier than that.

So I use a wheelchair following an accident ten years ago, I'm a bloody minded cow when I want to be, and I was determined to keep travelling.

Loads of places that say they are wheelchair friendly are not. I have crawled up and down stairs in St Petersburg's big art galleries because their website says completely accessible but they weren't. I've sat on planes for an hour after everyone else has got off and held up the next flight because "the lift isn't available, can you walk down the stairs?" No, sorry not unless you have god like powers.

It's even worse if it's autism or mh related in any way. I have supported a friend through a panic attack in a main line station because there were just too many people on the train and she locked herself into the loos for 40 minutes. We did eventually get in the train - about three hours after the one we were meant to catch.

Universities make reasonable adjustments for this kind of thing. They make the lectures available on video, you can be excused in person attendance (in one case my DD who uses a wheelchair wanted to attend but it was in an inaccessible room so she was told she was being excused).

You can also work remotely - no need to leave the house/do public transport etc.

Random other hobbies/socialising don't have to make adjustments and can often be full of rude people. (Why are you in a wheelchair? Etc).

So, yeah, people with additional needs should experience life. But it isn't as simple as just going out and doing it.

It is possible to support a neurodivergent daughter to have an independent life too. The mum can help her organise and get ready to go out, find groups, that kind of thing, and hang back, say she’ll be waiting in the cafe next door in case she needs something, while she develops confidence. There’s no need to insert herself into her daughter’s social life.

It’s possible she has autism, but her DC definitely does not - he’s under SLT and community paeds for other reasons. She’s a fairly close relative, and the professionals involved are concerned about her parenting and have referred him to specific therapeutic toddler groups, which she refuses to take him to due to her anxiety around other people. Whether she has autism or not she is not meeting his medical needs well.

Sorry, but there's ifs and more likely... it's more likely that a 30 year old will outlive her parent.
It's more likely than not that if you have a life without any independence from a parent and completely reliable on your parent you will struggle when a parent dies and you are on your own.

Without any extra info it sounds very much like the mother has made the daughter her “substitute partner”.
I personally find this emotionally abusive/manipulative