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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can’t just be me who is sick of the moaning about the private school VAT and winter fuel payments

587 replies

TruthorDie · 16/08/2024 22:09

The moaning about them seems to be never ending. So tone death and indulgent on both counts. Not sure which is worse. A friends mum was ranting on social media earlier about winter fuel payments being stopped and how “worried about being cold” she was. Bad news is Lynn you haven’t needed to work since 1989, married to an oil exec and have had lots of the good life. I’m sure all of your Florida holidays keep you warm enough!

Bright children can get on anywhere, my siblings and l went to a comprehensive. We all have a couple of degrees, one of us has a PhD so it didn’t hold us back too much in life. Before anyone comes at it from the neurodiversity angle then l am and l wouldn’t be surprised if my younger sibling isn’t

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
5128gap · 17/08/2024 11:40

MBDBBB · 17/08/2024 11:33

Sure “every little helps”, but it’s likely to actually cost them money. Their maths just doesn’t add up.

The level of debate on the “niche” issue suggests people do care. If anything you are lumping everyone in with your opinions.

I don’t think they need to whip up envy to “get this through” - they’ll do it anyway regardless, because they can. It was included front and centre in their manifesto because they knew it would appeal to people’s envy and therefore win votes, without costing it properly. If it was such a “niche” issue, why make it one of their headline pledges?

It’s just pretty pitiful that they are hiding it under a veil of levelling up opportunities when the actual implications for children with many different needs and backgrounds will be devastating.

The perception there is a high level of debate is skewed by a vocal minority trying to keep it front and centre. MN has been a key vehicle for this due to the demographic and the creativity of those in opposition in finding ever new ways to bring the topic up. Thread after thread from every conceivable angle makes it seem like it's constantly discussed. It's not in RL outside the bubbles of those effected. It was a headline policy imo precisely because the government knew it was safe. People want to know where money is coming from to fund their plans, and this is a source that many actively agree with and the rest are largely neutral about.

Itsmeamandaberry · 17/08/2024 11:40

Julen7 · 16/08/2024 23:35

Wait till Labour start raiding other benefits as inevitably they will, it won’t stop at pensioners and school fee paying parents.

Good. If we can't afford it we can't afford it.

There are too many people choosing not to work. Yes I have seen this first hand when I worked in employability

AngelusBell · 17/08/2024 11:43

HowIrresponsible · 17/08/2024 11:36

Junior doctors aren't on low pay for long. A junior doctor is all the way up to before you qualify as a consultant.

My ex drove a merc as a junior doctor when he was higher up the scale. They don't stay on peanuts and everyone knows it.

If you're on £33k (and where is such a low salary on the photo attached) you must be 25 and just qualified and left med school.l and after your fy 1 and 2. May I suggest not having a child on a £33k salary at a young age when you just left uni and wait until you earn more money.

I couldn't have afforded a child in my 20s as a junior solicitor. That my dear is called life. You wait for what you want until you can afford it. Build a career and earn some money first like the rest of us have to.

Edited

Yet nurses, care workers, supermarket staff and cleaners have children. It’s not essential to wait until you’re a highly paid professional in your 30s before having children.

PandoraSox · 17/08/2024 11:44

Bushmillsbabe · 17/08/2024 11:38

Yes, that's what it is after reduction unfortunately. Ours is nearly 4k.

I think that is just the single person's 25% discount, which is a different thing. If her income is low and she has capital less than £16k she should be entitled to a further reduction of some kind.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-council-tax-reduction

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 11:44

HowIrresponsible · 17/08/2024 11:36

Junior doctors aren't on low pay for long. A junior doctor is all the way up to before you qualify as a consultant.

My ex drove a merc as a junior doctor when he was higher up the scale. They don't stay on peanuts and everyone knows it.

If you're on £33k (and where is such a low salary on the photo attached) you must be 25 and just qualified and left med school.l and after your fy 1 and 2. May I suggest not having a child on a £33k salary at a young age when you just left uni and wait until you earn more money.

I couldn't have afforded a child in my 20s as a junior solicitor. That my dear is called life. You wait for what you want until you can afford it. Build a career and earn some money first like the rest of us have to.

Edited

Like l said in my post that was the pay for last year

Excellent advice. I also worked on my career, bought a property and then had children. Didn’t start trying for children until l was well into my 30’s. For clarity lm not a doctor, not married to a doctor or from a family of doctors

OP posts:
PinkyFlamingo · 17/08/2024 11:45

Clearly you don't live in Scotland OP.

HowIrresponsible · 17/08/2024 11:45

AngelusBell · 17/08/2024 11:43

Yet nurses, care workers, supermarket staff and cleaners have children. It’s not essential to wait until you’re a highly paid professional in your 30s before having children.

It is essential to wait if you want the tax payers to fund your life style choices. Why should anyone else pay for what you want

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 11:46

Itsmeamandaberry · 17/08/2024 11:40

Good. If we can't afford it we can't afford it.

There are too many people choosing not to work. Yes I have seen this first hand when I worked in employability

Yeah they are probably coming for them. The system is set up for more people to be working and contributing but they aren’t

OP posts:
Miley1967 · 17/08/2024 11:46

Itsmeamandaberry · 17/08/2024 11:37

OP I agree with your original post. How many of these pensioners are sitting with a shit ton of equity from the houses they bought for next to nothing (compared to today's prices)? If they are that skint take money out of the house.

I work with older people and every day get them saying they can't afford to live, can't afford their council tax etc whilst living in massive houses that they don't want to leave. Even many of the bungalows are massive !! I kind of understand that their homes may hold a lot of memories or they are overwhelmed trying to move but honestly the sheer numbers of them rattling around in huge houses unable to afford to heat more than one room is an eyeopener ! Then we get those living in interest only mortgaged houses who've made no provision as to how they will pay a mortgage on £900 state pension only per month ! Don't get me started on that. Do people just bury their heads in the sand ? There needs to be a lot more emphasis on planning for an affordable old age. I guess it just creeps up on people faster than they think. they are trying to pay for gardener, cleaners etc to maintain their massive gardens yet can't afford it. I'm not without sympathy honestly but my own plan is to downsize massively as soon as the kids are gone for definite !! My own 86 year old dad rattles around in a four bed semi but at least he can afford to live there although is starting to struggle to maintain it. I had one 85 year lady on our phone line the other day telling me she took equity out of her home, spent it all on holidays and cruises and now can't afford to live and what should she do, so sometimes taking equity out isn't always the answer !!

MBDBBB · 17/08/2024 11:46

5128gap · 17/08/2024 11:40

The perception there is a high level of debate is skewed by a vocal minority trying to keep it front and centre. MN has been a key vehicle for this due to the demographic and the creativity of those in opposition in finding ever new ways to bring the topic up. Thread after thread from every conceivable angle makes it seem like it's constantly discussed. It's not in RL outside the bubbles of those effected. It was a headline policy imo precisely because the government knew it was safe. People want to know where money is coming from to fund their plans, and this is a source that many actively agree with and the rest are largely neutral about.

Whether it is an actual source though hasn’t been proven. It’s fascinating that you think you know what everyone’s opinions are.

AngelusBell · 17/08/2024 11:49

HowIrresponsible · 17/08/2024 11:45

It is essential to wait if you want the tax payers to fund your life style choices. Why should anyone else pay for what you want

I’m a child of two factory workers. Thank goodness they didn’t find it essential to wait until they were professionals in their 30s before having children.

BumBumCream · 17/08/2024 11:52

My dad lives in a household of 3 pensioners (himself & two PIL, his wife still works) so they get 3 x fuel allowance on a household income of about 300,000. That does seem very very mad to me.

Itsmeamandaberry · 17/08/2024 11:53

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Scarletrunner · 17/08/2024 11:53

The nhs expanded greatly in the 70s those people are now coming up to retirement - and remember people are living a liooong time - goidness know how decades of pensions will be afforded.
This applies to state pension too- work for 50 years - pension for 25-30

daisychain01 · 17/08/2024 11:54

There are winners and losers in these political policies. There will be those who will most definitely lose because they're on the margins, not quite earning the low enough amount for eligibility to the WFP.

if we set those people to one side, because we know there's no such thing as "fair" in life and they are sadly the people who will lose from the government's policy, there are others to feel a disproportionate emotional response to loss versus the equivalent gain. It's called Prospect Theory.

The people the OP is talking about are those who bemoan the loss of the WFP that isn't a real need, they didn't have it before and they have got used to being given it each year. They like the idea of having the spenders given to them which has for years cushioned the blow of fuel costs, when in reality they know they can survive without and they have the ability to keep warm in winter. They're aggrieved about the loss, they don't need it but the gap it leaves is more painful to them than the reality of the loss. Human nature.

Miley1967 · 17/08/2024 11:54

BumBumCream · 17/08/2024 11:52

My dad lives in a household of 3 pensioners (himself & two PIL, his wife still works) so they get 3 x fuel allowance on a household income of about 300,000. That does seem very very mad to me.

Are they all claiming pension credit then? Or is this what they used to get before the changes?

2dogsandabudgie · 17/08/2024 11:56

Miley1967 · 17/08/2024 11:46

I work with older people and every day get them saying they can't afford to live, can't afford their council tax etc whilst living in massive houses that they don't want to leave. Even many of the bungalows are massive !! I kind of understand that their homes may hold a lot of memories or they are overwhelmed trying to move but honestly the sheer numbers of them rattling around in huge houses unable to afford to heat more than one room is an eyeopener ! Then we get those living in interest only mortgaged houses who've made no provision as to how they will pay a mortgage on £900 state pension only per month ! Don't get me started on that. Do people just bury their heads in the sand ? There needs to be a lot more emphasis on planning for an affordable old age. I guess it just creeps up on people faster than they think. they are trying to pay for gardener, cleaners etc to maintain their massive gardens yet can't afford it. I'm not without sympathy honestly but my own plan is to downsize massively as soon as the kids are gone for definite !! My own 86 year old dad rattles around in a four bed semi but at least he can afford to live there although is starting to struggle to maintain it. I had one 85 year lady on our phone line the other day telling me she took equity out of her home, spent it all on holidays and cruises and now can't afford to live and what should she do, so sometimes taking equity out isn't always the answer !!

It's not that easy to just downsize. Moving house is one of the most stressful things to do. Imagine being on your own in your 70s/80s and having to put your house on the market, deal with estate agents, solicitors etc, having to decide what furniture to take because you're moving into a much smaller place. I can understand why the elderly only move when they absolutely have no other choice.

The last time we moved we were in our 30s and I remember saying to my husband that I never wanted to move again. I can't imagine trying to do that as an elderly person and with no support.

Morph22010 · 17/08/2024 11:59

Bushmillsbabe · 17/08/2024 11:38

Yes, that's what it is after reduction unfortunately. Ours is nearly 4k.

You must live in very large houses then, rutland is the most expensive area for council tax in the country and a band d house there is around £2500 a year, and it’s only when you get up go band g and h that it’s anywhere near £4000. Could your neighbour not downsize? What the point in her living in a massive house alone thst she can’t afford to heat or repair on such a low income. Ideally this should have been done years ago rather than getting to this point at age 90 when it would be unsettling. Alternatively maybe she could look into some sort of equity release, I know these aren’t a good deal but at least it would free up some cash for her now if she’s struggling so much.

Miley1967 · 17/08/2024 12:00

Scarletrunner · 17/08/2024 11:53

The nhs expanded greatly in the 70s those people are now coming up to retirement - and remember people are living a liooong time - goidness know how decades of pensions will be afforded.
This applies to state pension too- work for 50 years - pension for 25-30

The future actually is really quite frightening. NHS pensions and lump sums are massive. Now I don't begrudge people that have worked hard getting them but many on my fb feed ( nurses) are currently getting their huge lump sums at 55. My own lump sum which I can't claim until 60 is forcast to be £75k and £10k annual pension ( if I have understood the statement correctly ) and whilst working in the NHS off and on for thirty years much of that was part time. Many people who worked full time will be hugely more than that. I think they may have changed it now but how is this affordable with so many less people now paying so little tax to fund these public sector pensions? I know the good NHS pension is a factor which makes it attractive for people to work there and probably one of the only good things about working for the NHS !!

Miley1967 · 17/08/2024 12:02

2dogsandabudgie · 17/08/2024 11:56

It's not that easy to just downsize. Moving house is one of the most stressful things to do. Imagine being on your own in your 70s/80s and having to put your house on the market, deal with estate agents, solicitors etc, having to decide what furniture to take because you're moving into a much smaller place. I can understand why the elderly only move when they absolutely have no other choice.

The last time we moved we were in our 30s and I remember saying to my husband that I never wanted to move again. I can't imagine trying to do that as an elderly person and with no support.

Yes exactly. It's totally overwhelming for many especially if you have no family to help you as many don't. I see a lot of older people living in big houses full of junk/ hoarding. There's no way they could move/ downsize without significant help from elsewhere.

CautiousLurker · 17/08/2024 12:03

AngelusBell · 17/08/2024 11:25

The SENCO qualification was a one year course a was at Level 7 (Master’s) but has now been downgraded to NPQ, which is below Level 7. There’s never been a requirement for a two-year Master’s. I have 6 years of Master’s level SEN qualifications post-PGCE. IEPs have not been required since the 2015 SEN Code of Practice.

Presumably the high needs students with private assessments will already have EHCPs, which are legal documents - allocated hours of support vary. It is difficult to find highly qualified SEN staff but it is mandatory in state schools, so each will have a SENCO, who must qualify within three years of taking up the position.

I don’t think it will be difficult to recruit 6000 teachers - I just think it will be difficult to retain them given the current exodus from the teaching profession, including early career teachers. The recruitment and retention crisis can only be blamed on the Government that was in power for 14 years until 6 weeks ago.

The VAT on private schools will fund some additional SEN support in state schools, which is only fair. We don’t need top-tier provision for the SEN proportion of 7%, but equality of provision for the SEN cohort of the 93% in state schools.

Most people I know have done the masters part time over 2 years so they could continue working as they are mainly in their 20’s/30s with kids having returned to education and retrained as teachers. They’ve obviously change training requirements since I explored doing it myself before lockdown (I wonder if this might possibly be because they were struggling to recruit people into training and the shortage of staff was worsening 🤔).

And even if/although this has changed it still doesn’t affect the fact that it will take several years to provide a significant number of SEN staff when there is already a shortage - of both existing SENs and qualified teachers interested in transitioning into it. My DD was given a IEP in 2015, my DS did/does have a ECHP. Had I known my post would be forensically parsed I would have clarified. The point is that it is hard in many areas to get one without taking the LEA to court. I live near a specialist private school for boys - 60% are LEA funded, many after taking the LEA to court - and they are all placed in that school because the local state school do not have the staff or the resources.

And with respect to the rest of your post, I think you are being disingenuous. There is a current teaching shortage because of both staff retention and failure to recruit. New graduates are leaving university with £45k+ of student finance debt. They are seeking jobs where they have earning potential so they can pay this off. Teaching salaries (and working conditions) do not attract them when weighted against this.

Private schools will not be generating 20% tax on current fee income - as many as 10% of students will leave; other schools will lower their fees to offset the 20% increase; others (like my children’s) will combine lowering fees with offsetting VAT due against increasing other estate income, such as wedding and event income etc. Once they become registered for VAT it means they can also claim back VAT charged on purchases/expenditure - so all the goods and services they buy in which charge VAT they can now offset against the VAT they charge on fees. Most private schools anticipate the net VAT owed will be approx 7-8%. So the govt will likely generate less than 40% of the revenue they are anticipating. The government are utter idiots for not appreciating that they will not be scooping 20% VAT on fees, because of the offset. Any builder, plasterer or plumber can explain this impact.

The government may plan to put some of this (now much reduced) revenue into additional SEN provision, but as I’ve stated it is already woeful, hence many parents having moved their kids into the private sector. And where, due to the length of days and access to free after school ECAs until 6pm, they are more able to take full time jobs (I and other mothers have done this to pay for it); these parents, now at the mercy of state school hours may no longer be able to work full-time in new schools, meaning less income tax revenue. And this is assuming there are places at local state schools - they are all over-subscribed in my area so new applicants often wait years for places and join a waiting list that is double digit long for each year, albeit it those with ECHPs will go to the top of that list… again shunting kids from poorer families without access to private assessments further down the list, but hey, it’s about an equal and fair system, right?

The system is broken, with decades of underfunding and provision is overstretched to the point of being non-existent in many areas, even if not in yours. It will be vulnerable children from families who cannot afford to get private assessments who will miss out. These are often children with parents equally challenged by ND/SEN and having been failed by the education system in earlier generations and less able to advocate for them. Labour, through sheer spite and ideology, will ultimately hurt the most vulnerable children in our society by their shortsightedness - so who cares if a few privately-funded, vulnerable children get caught in the crosshairs on the way down?

TruthorDie · 17/08/2024 12:03

Miley1967 · 17/08/2024 11:46

I work with older people and every day get them saying they can't afford to live, can't afford their council tax etc whilst living in massive houses that they don't want to leave. Even many of the bungalows are massive !! I kind of understand that their homes may hold a lot of memories or they are overwhelmed trying to move but honestly the sheer numbers of them rattling around in huge houses unable to afford to heat more than one room is an eyeopener ! Then we get those living in interest only mortgaged houses who've made no provision as to how they will pay a mortgage on £900 state pension only per month ! Don't get me started on that. Do people just bury their heads in the sand ? There needs to be a lot more emphasis on planning for an affordable old age. I guess it just creeps up on people faster than they think. they are trying to pay for gardener, cleaners etc to maintain their massive gardens yet can't afford it. I'm not without sympathy honestly but my own plan is to downsize massively as soon as the kids are gone for definite !! My own 86 year old dad rattles around in a four bed semi but at least he can afford to live there although is starting to struggle to maintain it. I had one 85 year lady on our phone line the other day telling me she took equity out of her home, spent it all on holidays and cruises and now can't afford to live and what should she do, so sometimes taking equity out isn't always the answer !!

100% agree. About the over housed and the woman blowing her money on cruises. Downsizing is often an option but lots of people don’t want to take it. Which is fine but don’t moan about your lack of cash.

OP posts:
5128gap · 17/08/2024 12:04

MBDBBB · 17/08/2024 11:46

Whether it is an actual source though hasn’t been proven. It’s fascinating that you think you know what everyone’s opinions are.

No more fascinating than your claim that less advantaged people are so stupid and impressionable they need the Labour party to 'whip them up' before they notice wealth inequality. Or your claim to know people support this policy because they are 'angry' 'bitter' and 'jealous' of a few people who can't afford VAT on school fees.

BumBumCream · 17/08/2024 12:04

Miley1967 · 17/08/2024 11:54

Are they all claiming pension credit then? Or is this what they used to get before the changes?

Yes sorry - before the changes.

JudgeJ · 17/08/2024 12:07

TruthorDie · 16/08/2024 22:09

The moaning about them seems to be never ending. So tone death and indulgent on both counts. Not sure which is worse. A friends mum was ranting on social media earlier about winter fuel payments being stopped and how “worried about being cold” she was. Bad news is Lynn you haven’t needed to work since 1989, married to an oil exec and have had lots of the good life. I’m sure all of your Florida holidays keep you warm enough!

Bright children can get on anywhere, my siblings and l went to a comprehensive. We all have a couple of degrees, one of us has a PhD so it didn’t hold us back too much in life. Before anyone comes at it from the neurodiversity angle then l am and l wouldn’t be surprised if my younger sibling isn’t

No doubt you too 'moan' about things which impact on you, are you saying that other people are not allowed to do the same? Maybe people resent the benefits given to people simply for breeding, just a whatever, not an opinion of mine. For some people the loss of the Winter Fuel payment will have a severe impact if they are just over the financial line, in the same way that child benefit payments were reduced or lost because it was based on individual incomes rather than an aggregation of household income.