Am I being mean about the "supersweet" friend?

[endlessnonsense]

I have a friend (well, she's equally a friend of me and DH, she and her XH used to be our neighbours). We now only see her a couple of times a year as we live far away now, and I wouldn't call her a really close friend. When we go on holiday, which is to a hot seaside place in Europe, we often get friends joining us as we have a place to stay and a boat, which is fun. This year she came.

I spent a lot of the time she was here in a state of suppressed anger at her, which caused me to resent her being here. This is because she turned out, on a several-days long time together, rather than the odd dinner we usually have, to be constantly pretending (or was she pretending?) to be very thoughtful and considerate, when I felt she was being just the opposite, in a passive aggressive way.

Everywhere we suggested going and everything we suggested doing, she deferred to us, "oh I'll do whatever you want, don't worry about me", never offering any suggestions of her own or seeming especially enthusiatic. OK, fair enough, we know the place and she doesn't. But it went much further. She was always faux putting herself down/being the martyr/putting on performative sweetness.

My son has special needs and she is always supersweet to him, but I told her multiple times during the holiday, no, he doesn't want an ice cream, he doesn't like it. It must have run into more than a dozen times she said, "oh darling, do you want an ice cream, oh please let me get him an ice cream, I'll pay"(as though I wasn't getting him the ice cream myself because of meanness). (Strangely, although she knows he does like chocolate, she never once offered to buy him a chocolate)

We planned a trip to a particular place she hadn't been, specifically to show it to her. Other friends were coming too, they are local and had been to the place many times, but we're coming along to be sociable with us and her. When she asked me how many people were coming and I mentioned it would be quite a few (in positive way, saying it would be a fun social event) she said, all sweetly, "well if you don't have room for me I'll just stay behind at the apartment, I don't mind at all". That really annoyed me, she knew the trip was arranged specifically for her!

Another (even more annoying) example, we were at a beach bar/restaurant with a bunch of people. Too many to get one table so we were split between 2 tables. Our food came marginally before the other table's (not more than 2 or 3 minutes). In that time she expressed concern that the toddler at the other table had not yet got her food, and actually got up to take her own plate of food to the toddler (it was a salad of some sort and the toddler was getting chips, so not even remotely the same thing). Me and DH had to physically get her to stop it and sit down before the toddler's mum saw.

She has always been very much a "oh don't worry about me, I'll just have a tap water" type of person, but on this holiday she really got my goat. She's left now and I am not sure if she noticed I was a bit snippy with her by the end. AIBU and a mean friend?

You're being mean. The woman is just coming out of a marriage and is finding her place as the single friend alongside the couples. She's probably acutely aware of being a bit of a charity case for people who think she 'needs a fun time' and are doing this and that 'for' her, rather than with her as an equal participant in the group. She doesn't want to be a burden or a nuisance and is over compensating for that. The dynamic has shifted for all of you now she's become 'poor Jane, all on her own and needs a nice time' and your friendship may not survive it.

There was another thread recently on here about people pleasers and whether this was manipulative. People can be really nice. Or it can be deeply inauthentic and with the intention of propping themselves up in some way, rather than from helping or being nice to others. She sounds exhausting to be around.

Meant to add to my last post my children are young adults now so we get to go away on our own. The fact is even when they were still at school I can't imagine contemplating group holidays. I'd need a holiday to get over it. I do feel for your friend OP but I'd support her in other ways,not on my family holiday but each to their own.

I think I’m like this I think it’s from my childhood like never to have a opinion and just do as I’m told
if I buy something I really want like new trainers I don’t wear them because I think they are too nice for me
I’m weird lol

Agreed. What an appalling post LeontineFrance

@Bluescapes9 this friend though invited herself on the holiday. Why would you do that if you didn't like groups? You can't ask to join another person's holiday and then be annoyed that they also invite others surely?

Where’s your evidence for that though? It just seems you’ve got an idea about what she was doing and who she is with very little indication from the OP. She is in somebody else’s space, maybe having a bit of a shit time anyway, trying to fit in and picking up on the host being annoyed and imo quite intolerant. anyone would feel awkward. Some of the most socially anxious and awkward people I know are men as well. It’s maybe how we deal with it, withdrawal, over compensation, submission… anyway I’m glad it wasn’t me on the trip. Sounds bleak and I bet she is glad to be home

Er, the OP said in her first post

She has been going through a breakup from her XH and we thought she could use a fun holiday , that's why we invited her.

She then revised it to friend invited herself.

I didn't even specifically invite her, she asked if she could come as she knows we always have an open invitation to anyone who wants to join us.

Although the friend is someone We now only see her a couple of times a year as we live far away now, and I wouldn't call her a really close friend

which seems slightly odd that such a casual friend would know and assume the open invitation still exists.

Insincerity is probably my number one disliked trait in people.

You describe this lady as someone who had always behaved in this way, yet you've made a thread on here, called her a wetblanket, admitted to resenting her and being snippy, and suddenly realising, only because of this thread, that you don't actually like her?

Ironic, don't you think.

There are so many posters whose default response to this person's behaviour is rage (this word has cropped up a few times) - and they weren't even there! I can see how the behaviour might be annoying to some people, but it's so unfair to ascribe hidden meaning to it. Saying that it's performative or somehow manipulative. That the 'sweetness' displayed is disingenuous. I think that says far more about the person holding that opinion.

The thing is that if you have grown up with this behaviour you immediately learn to recognise it. It comes from a place of fear: fear of showing too much “self” and too much of a personality. This does trigger rage in me and I won’t apologise for this because it comes from a profoundly self destructive state that women impose on themselves (and it’s usually handed down mother to daughter) in order not to rock the patriarchy boat.

Its an unspoken code of behaviour that dictates that women shouldn’t have needs or beliefs or strongly held opinions because they are “unfeminine” and imposing and that their best self is to blend seamlessly into the background. It’s a way to anticipate male needs and demands before they are made by negating yourself.

It took me a long time and a lot of therapy to work out that my mother’s endless dictates against having too much personality and “appropriate” behaviour (basically never saying what you really think) were basically her trying to hold onto her marriage. I can recognise this kind of “don’t rock the boat” behaviour at 100 paces. It’s usually done unconsciously and often people have little control over it. So I have some sympathy. But I also feel life is too short and too precious to pander to the unspoken needs of who don’t have the balls to say what’s actually on their minds.

I think the OP has difficulty admitting she doesn't like someone for petty or trivial reasons or no reason. It's fine to dislike someone for petty or trivial reasons, or no reason, as long as you don't bully them, treat them unfairly or generally make their life unpleasant.

My projection from what the OP has posted is OP sees herself as some sort of grand hostess- going to the same place every year, knows all the best places, made friends with the locals, other friends visiting on the "open invitation" and all are ready to go on OP's mass outings. But a good host wouldn't fixate on one guest's minorly irritating habits.

If I were a friend who took up the open invitation I'd be wondering what was being said behind my back.

@Donotneedit

Where’s your evidence for that though? It just seems you’ve got an idea about what she was doing and who she is with very little indication from the OP

I have as much or as little evidence as anyone else on this thread. This is a discussion board, we don’t have live case studies: there’s not much I can do about this.

But I am deeply familiar with this syndrome.

Same here, @Funnywonder
I agree with @Thatsawrap1 this kind of “don’t worry about me” attitude resonates very much with me, as an Irishwoman living in Ireland.

I’m astonished that so many posters here find a non-demanding, self effacing attitude so offensive.

Yeh this thread has massively opens my eyes as to how mean spirited so may women are, taking offence and being irritated by such things.

OP has certainly bent over backwards to tell us how great, fun and entertaining she is as a host with her plethora of mass outings and friends. Sounds like a bit of a boastful and over the top person who can't comprehend somebody might be different to her self described 'bounciness'.

Ew I would not be impressed with that at all! Did they stay back and have soup? 😁

@AgileGreenSeal

I’m astonished that so many posters here find a non-demanding, self effacing attitude so offensive.

It’s not offensive it’s just very irritating.

Its also a question of context. It’s completely appropriate when you don’t know someone well to defer to them to some extent and keep your personality a bit under wraps.

But with close relationships it becomes a bit of a burden because it means the onus is on someone else all the time to take decisions and get things done. In its way it’s kind of “learned helplessness” which just means other people have to do all the thinking.

If you think it's worth the time and effort, it's possible to deal with this kind of behaviour in a way which improves communication. It doesn't always work, but it's worth a try.

We'll assume that she genuinely wants to please people rather than she is manipulative.

If you say "we are going to this place with these people" and she says she doesn't want to be a burden, say "It would make me happy if you said whether you want to go or not based what you want, for you."

As for self-deprecating comments, brush them aside, and ask her what she wants.

For "I don't mind where we go," if it's indecision paralysis, fair enough, just decide. If not "It would really make me happy if you expressed a preference."

In general, if she really wants to make you happy, tell her what will make you happy, especially if that's expressing her own desires.

I had a friend who was way too self-deprecating when given a compliment, and I said "The correct answer to a compliment is thank you!" It took her a while to get to grips with it, but she's happier with accepting compliments now.

On the ice cream "he doesn't have ice cream, but he'd be very happy with X. Can you do that instead?"

Finally, if she likes being helpful, give her things to do that are helpful to you.

My MIL was of the manipulative kind, so I would play around with her a bit. When I asked her if she wanted tea or coffee and she said "whatever is the least trouble." I said - "I'm the host M, and what would make me happy is if I could please my guest."

On one occasion I asked her (out of context) how do you take your tea at home and circumvented the whole "however it comes" nonsense by making her the cup of tea she had lovingly described.

She never changed, though.

No one’s that pissing “nice” all the time. We all have different moods. I’m suspicious of anyone who doesn’t. She sounds fake as fuck and attention-seeking.

I completely agree with this.

Isn’t it possible that some people really are just quite easy going and “don’t mind” on matters of low importance though?

Can’t they have strongly held opinions on certain things without having to have them on every subject?

I have extremely strong opinions on certain matters which if stated here would probably get me banned. Where we go for a day out on holiday isn’t one of them. I’m happy enough to let others decide if that’s what matters to them.

What a weird, hateful and negative interpretation of her behaviour. So thankful I don't know anyone like some of the posters on here in real life.

@AgileGreenSeal

Isn’t it possible that some people really are just quite easy going and “don’t mind” on matters of low importance though?

Of course, there are plenty of issues that I don’t have strong feelings on and will happily defer to others on. People who always want to have their own way for the sake of it are equally nightmarish.

But we are talking people who are chronically and systematically devoid of opinions, incapable of making choices and unable to advocate for themselves even with people they know well, as this person the OP is referencing appears to be.

A certain degree of diplomacy is healthy but beyond a certain degree it becomes a way of avoiding any risk or responsibility and a real pain in the arse for the people on whose shoulders it lands.

I don't think she was pretending but I can see how it's annoying.

I married an "I don't mind" person and I completely understand. It drives me crazy when I suggest things to do on the weekend and am met with a very unenthusiastic "yeah, I don't mind" instead of "yeah, that sounds like fun", even when it's something he'd enjoy more than me. Don't get me started on the more basic things like trying to meal plan for the week. Every couple of years it gets too much and I have to remind him that he's an adult and needs to contribute or make decisions instead of leaving life up to me. That's a much harder conversation to have with a friend though.

If a friend said to me "please let me buy your child an ice-cream, I'll pay", I would probably be quite offended. It implies that you're being mean to the child and mean with your money. If there's another reason, like your child doesn't like ice-cream or they're being punished, it feels like undermining your parenting.

I did this to another parent once who reminded me that she'd already told me their DD didn't like sweets. I apologised and asked them what I could treat them to instead. This friend doesn't seem like she did that.

I'm a female dog to "don't minders". Either they're boring and don't have an opinion of their own or they're lying. Can't stand it.