UK universities in trouble - why not add VAT to tuition?

[80smonster]

UK universities are in trouble, apparently many could close, why not charge VAT on tuition fees (for those that are financially viable)? Bridget Phillipson says they are autonomous institutions and won’t be given a public bail out - they should rely on their own resources:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/aug/09/english-universities-face-autumn-tipping-point-as-financial-crisis-looms

YABU - don’t add the VAT
YANBU - add the VAT

@ImpossibleTh1ng This might come as a shock, but in London around 20% go to private schools. I bet you their parents are mostly pretty bright and have welll paid careers lots of other parents couldn’t get. Why would they not have bright dc? They aren’t competing with 80% of the rest to get to the best unis, only around 38.% of dc go at 18. The brightest should go to the best unis end that’s that. They are geographically spread around so what’s the issue?

Of course the issue is too many dc don’t want a trade and prefer a low level course at a low level uni and then cannot get a grad job. Even dc at top unis can struggle. Personality and work ethic count too.

Look at Lincolnshire. Lincoln has a uni, but Lincolnshire is one of the worst employment areas for grads. Is that surprising? Probably not but local dc will have to move away. They often don’t want to so grad employment is a struggle. Might as well not have bothered and the state is paying if they pay next to no grad tax. So we do need to look at value for money, get far more apprenticeships and stop pretending English at the uni of Blog will get you a brilliant grad job. We need a cull within the lowest 1/3 of unis and mergers. Certainly old polys should stay. New plate glass too but others that were colleges of HE should revert to that status. We don’t need expensive unis producing unwanted grads. Use their Halls of residence for much needed homes.

Newsflash there is a whole lot of UK outside of the SE.Nobody is saying the brightest shouldn’t go to uni but they aren’t necessarily the ones who get the places in the top 30 mentioned as the unis only worthy of staying open.

This is the most stupid post I ever saw.

I would prefer a graduate tax, paid throughout life.

Are they?

Agree 100%, just close down in a controlled and orderly manner, and make sure there are fair admissions processes for those that remain.

Wow so nurses, teachers and researchers get charged extra tax. No thanks.

Plumbers are self employed with all the advantages that brings as regards tax.

Ah so the privileged few more likely to get the top uni places get even less competition in the job market.

Yes, I see that point.
I've said for a while that I think student numbers will fall at UK Unis, both local and international. I think a lot will close. That's the direction of travel imo.
I think Blair's plan was a big mistake. It has turned Unis into businesses, reduced the quality of higher education, devalued the degree, led to students taking on tens of thousands of debt, which they pay back with huge amounts of interest, often unable to get a well paid job still. There are also very few good apprenticeships nowadays as a result. Having lots of people with degrees doesn't create lots of well paid jobs- that was illogical thinking.
We need much better strategy in work force planning and we should look after our young people better.

Why don’t they just attract a few more Chinese students? That’s what boarding schools do.

Because the Tories have made visas for students harder so foreign student numbers have dropped.

One of the dumbest questions I’ve seen asked in a long time.

edited to add: that was to the op. I can see the thread has moved on a bit!

I don’t agree.

The poorest often can’t afford to leave home and need local unis. The cost of living and the dire renting situation has made that worse. Locals unis in say Northumberland are the only chance many kids have of getting a degree. There is no bank of mum and dad for many.

www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv22y7zl18po

Birth rates are low (hitting schools now) so there are less future dc to go to uni. Making them more expensive isn’t the solution, particularly if we want an educated population.

A big issue is the cost of housing fir students, housing has fucked up some much of the economy imo.

You've just explained that Univesities ate businesses. Labour are using that as 1 reason to do VAT on independent schools so if you follow that reasoning then universities should have VAT applied.
Uni as an education route is only going to get more expensive and therefore only open to the kids of wealthier parents. If that happens then they will become "elite" in concept and at that stage I believe it will be hard for them to be exempt from VAT on fees

And the fact that racism is rife in the UK right now is putting them off.

The bottom line is that we need a skilled workforce. Arguably, university education is the best form of education (learning and development) for some careers, but not all that many.

The challenge is, very few alternatives for high quality learning and development programmes that provide appropriate initial and on-going training, for the full range of careers/ jobs needed, exists.

Universities have been plugging this gap for years. What is often labelled a 'Mickey mouse' degree, often comes from pseudo intellectualising content to enable awarding bodies to determine the course a Level 6 course (bachelor's degree). The course may be worth studying for enjoyment and/or vocational purposes, but it might not be well suited to academic study.

It's hard to find a practical way out of this situation. The 'how dare you' responses on this thread show that a lot of weight is given to going to university beyond that of gaining a qualification that evidences academic attainment in a single field of study. People seem to think of it as a right of passage, a right that should not be denied due to disability, a sign of status, evidence that someone is 'capable' (regardless whether this is academic capability).

I have taught many who have excellent academic skills who, by all other metrics, aren't very 'bright'. I have worked with incredibly bright and sharp people whose abilities and disposition are not suited to academic learning.

The only good thing about tuition fees has been increasing discernment from the general public about value for money of degrees. I have no doubt that if there were a range of high quality alternative options to support entry to, and progression in, desirable and well paid careers, universities would be in greater trouble.

We need universities, they play an important role in knowledge generation and dissemination. It would be tragic, in my view, if they no longer did this for the arts. It would also be tragic if they remain less accessible to those from certain demographics. However, I have no issue with them being all about academia and for academia not being for all.

That's what we've been doing for years!
International student numbers have declined dramatically.
There are a number of reasons for this but this is one of the reasons universities are in financial trouble.

I work in the China market and I'm finding that many Chinese students who want an international education are choosing countries closer to home because it's cheaper.

A labour government isn’t going to let unis become elite. VAT will make the situation worse so not going to happen.

The less well off and disadvantaged are the young people who will be disadvantaged the most by unis closing.

Hopefully labour will sort out visas for foreign students to start with.

I hope you see the value of unis in far flung undesirable places staying open so the disadvantaged can access this academia.

There's a lot more competition for those wealthy Chinese students nowadays. Respect for the UK has definitely fallen internationally and China has risen and has better opportunities for students. I think a lot more are going to the US now.

I’d imagine Brexit has yet again delivered negatives. Why would you come here? There are excellent unis all across Europe.

Universities are in between state and private. They receive some government funding (although not a lot) and they are non profit making. Unlike private schools they can't increase their prices.

Which bit don't you agree with? I made several points.
I did say that I agree that poorer students would miss out. Obviously there is no bank of mum and dad for many.