UK universities in trouble - why not add VAT to tuition?

[80smonster]

UK universities are in trouble, apparently many could close, why not charge VAT on tuition fees (for those that are financially viable)? Bridget Phillipson says they are autonomous institutions and won’t be given a public bail out - they should rely on their own resources:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/aug/09/english-universities-face-autumn-tipping-point-as-financial-crisis-looms

YABU - don’t add the VAT
YANBU - add the VAT

Any university under the top 30 is a waste of your money now that fees have increased. If someone can’t get into a top 30, maybe uni isn’t for them.

I guess you don't really care about social mobility or widening participation then?

@wombat15

"It would be cheaper and less complicated to raise tuition fees in the first place."

True - but politically massively unpopular to raise tuition fees, especially with the left.

Whereas VAT in tuition fees can be argued to the left that "look you're happy for VAT on private school fees because only a minority attend and these are usually the well off (although some are on bursaries). How different is this to universities where most young people don't attend and it usually the better off.

How different is this to universities where most young people don't attend and it usually the better off.

It's no longer just those that are better off attending university. However, first generation students and those from lower socioeconomic groups are more likely to attend local and lower ranked universities.

Some of the suggestions on this thread would directly impact that group of students and would mean university becomes the preserve of the rich once again.

If we want the UK to be able to compete globally, let alone in Europe, we need an overhaul of FE/HE funding and the courses offered.

We already have some of the most expensive fees in the World.

We could start at looking where we have skills shortages and adjusting fees accordingly, fees generally, need to come down.

Quite why its deemed acceptable for a AHP to look after the sick and elderly that we desperately need but then charge them fees to do this is bonkers, HCPs in the main, don't go one to earn vast amounts of money.

Not sure I’ve ever seen an OP with a more tenuous understanding of what they’re talking about than this one.

Still oissed off about private schools losing tax breaks, OP???

we need educated people - engineers teachers doctors architects etc so want a wider range of people, on merit, being able to go to Uni - so adding VAT, that the Universities won’t see isn’t a good way of getting a wider range of people in further education

We don’t need little kids wearing knickerbockers and cravats in ‘prep’ schools the same way as we need educated professionals.

I'm not clear how broad participation in higher education is particularly valuable for social mobility.

Why are we bothered about widening participation in universities? Anyone who wants to go can already, universities have lots of policies to support those who come from under privileged backgrounds. The system produces far too many graduates in subjects we don't need and dont help those people who study them.

If you really wanted to increase social mobility a good way to help would be to stop young people getting massive amounts of debt for studying degrees which don't increase their employability or their salaries.

Perhaps reducing subsidies to universities for teaching subjects we don't need and directing that money into schools would be more effective?

But yet you want plumbers and HGV drivers to pay VAT for education and not those privileged middle class occupations you highlight.

University education is a privilege for the few. It's time for those who have that luxury to stop being subsidized by everyone else and pay VAT.

Wow way to show your prejudices.

1. private schools don't have "tax breaks". They currently pay VAT but can't claim it back
2. VAT is a tax on parents not schools. Parents will pay the tax, not the school
3. would it be acceptable if I called all state school kids "chav" names? No, so why is it ok to do that for kids at indy schools?
4. indy schools save the state £4 billion per year. How is that a tax break?

This is the only policy where some people think it is acceptable to show glee at damage being caused to a certain group of kids. It is kids who will be impacted in all of this, you are happy to see that ie the 111,000 kids with SEN at indy schools?
Maybe stop listening to Labour's divisive soundbites on this issue.

Anyone who wants to go can already, universities have lots of policies to support those who come from under privileged backgrounds.

Tell me you know nothing about widening participation without telling me you no nothing about widening participation 🙄

And the suggestion we have too many graduates- that's a myth.

My brother sent his children to PS, there were no parents who were hgv drivers or plumbers.

Plus students pay expensive interest rates on loans, way above the mortgage rate for example.

Uni isn't a luxury, if you want to go into many careers, a degree is required.

Or we could widen immigration and the skilled worker visas?

This thread is completely bizarre.

The privately educated are already unfairly represented in the best unis. Charging VAT would make that worse. Never going to happen.

I know.

I had to work fulltime from the age of 16, while studying my A-levels to go to university. That gave me just enough to get through the first year once I’d paid my own rent, utilities etc.

Universities have specifically differentiated entrance policies to support applications from under privileged backgrounds. Record numbers attend.

The UK has one of the highest levels of university qualified workforces in the world. Increasingly well qualified but at the same time work force productivity has declined. We produce the wrong type of skills and vast numbers of people who don't need degrees for their employment. It's an abysmal failure - huge amounts of money invested and instead of productivity in the UK it's declined.

We have such an over supply of graduates that we pay degree educated supply teachers day rates of 150-200 a day and electricians day rates of 250-300 and plumbers 300-400.

We don't need so many graduates.

Wow what an awful thing to say.

My incredibly bright ND dc has had a horrendous few years and has been battling ptsd for something that happened to her. Her A level results aren’t what they should have been( we’re beyond proud she got any) she is going to a uni out of the top 30. More 40s.Her degree will enable her to get into the field sh is interested in. She is capable and sdeserves it. Lots of teens experience utter shit. Some come from horrendously difficult backgrounds, battle disabilities, poverty, MH battles , grief, crime….uni is still for them. They may not get a raft of As at GCSEs and Alevel but their grades are worth far more.

Private schools are still unfairly represented.

@Simonjt exactly.
Suggesting a student isn't university material if you can't get into a top 30 university is completely ignorant of challenges some young people face.

I also had to work throughout my A levels and chose to go to a local, post 92 institution because I couldn't afford to go anywhere else and I had zero parental support.
That experience was still transformational both personally and professionally.
I'm where I am now because of my university experience.

20 years later I have completed my PhD which specifically looked at how young people make choices related to higher education. While we have far more young people from non traditional backgrounds going to university they are still choosing local, mid/low ranked universities. We have not solved all issues relating to social mobility just because more school leavers than ever are going to university.

So loans which fully cover tuition fees and up to 13k a year for living costs over and above tuition aren't enough?

Universities have specifically differentiated entrance policies to support applications from under privileged backgrounds. Record numbers attend.

Yeah I know. I've worked in this field for over 20 years.
Just looking at the headline figures doesn't tell you the full picture.

We have such an over supply of graduates that we pay degree educated supply teachers day rates of 150-200 a day and electricians day rates of 250-300 and plumbers 300-400.

Terrible example. We have a huge shortage of teachers in the UK. We are desperate for more people to train to become teachers, the sector is on crisis.
The pay isn't a reflection of the uk having too many teachers, it's a reflection of a poorly funded education system.
Same applies for almost all health professional jobs.

We don't need so many graduates.
Not true. See above.

UK has made getting some trades very difficult.

To become an Electrician, you need an employer first... same with gas registered plumbers, before you can even begin to train at an FE college.

But to be a HCP, you can go to Uni for 2 or 3 years, then look for a job.

You can argue whatever you like but the majority of the population will disagree. A much higher proportion of the population go to universities and they are not usually well off.

So loans which fully cover tuition fees and up to 13k a year for living costs over and above tuition aren't enough?

No, and even the government recognise this as there is an expected parental contribution. Bit of a shitter if your parents can't or won't support you.

Also, the 13k amount is only for students who live in a household where the income is below 25k and the student is studying in London. Outside of London this is much less.

As your house income rises the amount of loan decreases. This means for many students the loan amount doesn't cover the cosy of accommodation. This is where the government expects parents to plug the gap. But not all parents can.

The maximum maintenance loan in England outside of London is £10,227.

When I went to university the maximum loan was just over £4,000 for students in England studying outside of London. I wasn’t receiving that, as a care leaver I was unable to provide a parental income, as I was 19 I wasn’t considered an independent adult, despite the fact that I had been fully financially independent from the age of 16, so my own income wasn’t counted. As a result I received the non-assessed rate which provides the minimim loan amount and at that time no grant (you could get a grant on certain income levels). My rent was 2.5 times my student maintenance loan. If I had been assessed on my income I would have recieved a maintenance loan that covered my rent and nothing else, so would have still needed to work a substantial amount of hours. Job markets are tough in uni towns and cities due to the competition, needing a job isn’t a guarantee of getting one.

Considering what nurses are expected to do today I want nurses and pharmacists to have degrees. I want the teachers teaching my kids to have degrees.. Ditto the psychologists, dentists, vets, vetinary nurses, OTs, psychologists, psychotherapists….. I might need.. I’d like the uk to stay involved with the best research so would like young people from all backgrounds to get science and research worthy degrees in all areas. I’d like us to still produce top quality musicians, linguists and artists with degrees too….

The list is endless. Value isn’t just in the MN barometer of a Russel group degree in law and medicine after a raft of privately educated As and a list of completely non relevant and relevant extra curricular activities paid for by rich parents for a privileged few.