To think "genuine concerns about immigration are irrelevant?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

I fully accept that people may have genuine concerns about immigration. Some of those concerns may be 100% valid. Some may be based on misinformation or poor understanding. Regardless, I can accept the fact that some people have concerns.

But if people do have concerns, there are ways of expressing and addressing these properly. Peaceful demonstrations. Lobbying MPs. Or even standing for election.

But as soon as people make the leap from expressing legitimate concern about government policies to intimidating and attacking innocent individuals who have no influence or control over those policies, that is when "concerns" are no longer relevant and common or garden racism takes over. If people weren't fundamentally racist, why on earth would it even occur to them to do this?

If I am unhappy about decisions affecting my community taken by my local council, my first thought isn't to go and beat up my neighbour in order to make a point. Most people would recognise that such anger was utterly misplaced. Why is it that people don't seem to recognise that the anger towards migrants/asylum seekers/ethnic minorities/muslims etc is equally misplaced. Why are so many people saying that they understand the reasons for the violence ever though they don't condone it.

I don't think it's at all understandable that someone with grievances about government policy would think that throwing bricks at a mosque or setting fire to a building full of people will help to resolve the issues that they are concerned about. The people that they are targeting are not in a position to change anything. There is no logic to this thinking, so why do people's minds go there? As far as I can see, the only possible explanation is racism, pure and simple. The "genuine concerns" are nothing but a cover for thuggery.

People who riot are just thugs who like any excuse for a good fight. The 'reason' is almost irrelevant.

Separately there are many, many thousands of people who never in a million years would have described themselves as racist, suddenly feeling overwhelmed with the amount of people who have quite different customs from them changing the feel of their village/town/city etc.

People are not logical, and I think by and large in this country aren't racist. But introduce changes too quickly to a community and yes, people will feel scared, and the less intelligent amongst them will protest violently.

It's also summer - I still remember the riots in the 80s. The moment the temperature dropped so did the riots.

Yes sorry I conflated asylum seekers with legal immgrants coming to take jobs. Two seperate statuses, the first usually becoming the second.

@HighlandCowbag well written and actually pretty much how my Sister felt on a very large estate just on the outskirts of London.

Sadly, a lot of people just refuse to see it or deal with it.

She has a black son, I have a British/asian daughter for the record.

The problem is blame culture. People blame everyone else. The government, local government and employers. We have huge shortages in some industries. There is work for people who will do it. Building sites are desperate as no one replaced the EU people who came and worked in construction. There are very decent wages for trades. When people disengage and blame everyone else, they don’t see opportunities. Even old mining towns have access to colleges and education. Clearly some dc in Rotherham are taking the opportunities out there. Sheffield is on the doorstep,

I think blaming others is a new phenomenon. People didn’t until the Brexit agitators started in around 1990. Before then we were more tolerant (not of striking miners) and self starters. Wages are low because we pay universal credit. This replaced wages. It’s a whole catalogue of mistakes.

The latest mistake is hs2 from London to Birmingham. Getting the north connected east to west was vital but Labour ducked it and didn’t see the need under Brown and subsequent mayors. Huge mistake.

There have been no riots at all in my area, when I moved here I was suprised at the lazy racism compared to where I grew up. Yet, where I grew up there have been protests. That area was always much more diverse than where I currently live but since I moved it has been very affected by immigration. I couldn’t say it was a historically working class area although it is significantly ‘poorer’ now than surrounding areas. There is no excuse for violence and intimidation, but many have protested peacefully - peaceful protest, even if others dislike your point, I do back. I think it’s this kind of comment These people don’t have genuine concerns. They are racists who will take any chance to show who they are. that leads to people like my former neighbours protesting, as they have been shouted down as racist when they have tried to speak up, by people who have no understanding of what they have experienced.

The areas with the biggest violence were actually less diverse than average. If you listen to these 'genuine concerns' they make no sense. The people are usually racist. And if anyone thinks voting Reform will solve anything they are sadly mistaken. NF has hardly been in Clacton since election and seems to have no intention to hold surgeries and has ducked out of parliament on many occasions already to. They will solve nothing.
As well as proper investment in the north and seaside towns, calling out the 'posh' racists and bigots as well as the thugs will help solve this. They are the ones offering apparently simple but disingenuous solutions to the issues people experience.
Our real issue is a huge inequality gap. When the gap between rich and poor gets too big trouble comes. At the moment it's misdirected but the multiples of salaries that CEOs are on vs what they pay their staff is immoral.

My dh is in the trades, as are other males in my family. It was fucked up by cheap EU labour, companies deliberately going bust for the VAT and CIS and now being fucked by employment agencies.

To get in the trades you need access to college as a 16-18 year old and need maths and English to complete your course. Lots don't and won't pass GSCE maths and/or English. Then you need someone to take you on as a wet behind the ears young person. Lots of young people don't drive cos can't afford lessons. Public transport doesn't start early enough or is reliable enough to get you Rotherham to say Leeds for an 8am start, when you live in a former mining village 9 miles from the town centre.

We struggle with setting young lads on, for those and other reasons. Generational poverty certainly plays a part.

Dcs like mine will be OK. I've just done a degree at 46, will do an MA next year so they have that knowledge to use, both my dcs are naturally academic. But dcs from families with no educational aspirations, no reference point of what a good job looks like, low level crime and antisocial behaviour their norm? It takes a very determined young person to improve their situation via education or a trade.

And trades are brutal, backbreaking, health wrecking occupations anyway. Who wants that for their kids?

I am brown and fairly sick of these riots, but your thoughtfully worded comment @HighlandCowbag is one of the few on MN that have made sense to me. There won't be an easy solution though, and therefore racist attacks will continue. I was cheered by the calm in London though.

This!

But no one's seems to be about to explain in detail what they have an issue with

For example with brexit I heard 'they will stop taking our jobs' so I ask 'who is they?, what jobs are they taking, how many 'white british' people are applying and miss out because of an immigrant get it it instead, how many jobs, what is the affects of this' nothing

So instead of using 'immigrants' actually give details and facts and figures with sources of what the issue is, from official channels that is

There's a good article in the Spectator by Douglas Murray giving exactly those figures.

Since the riots of 2011:

2011 - foreign born workforce was 14%
2024 - foreign born workforce is 21%
Employment has grown by 3.6 million 74% of that bring made up of immigrant workers. So only 929,000 people born here benefitted from job creation in the last 13 years.

Unemployment in :

Sunderland has increased from 18% to 19%
Rotherham from 16% to 18%
Hartlepool from 21% to 23%

Quite interesting (and obvious if you live in the north) that the wealth allegedly brought in to the country by immigration has not trickled upwards.

People have always blamed others.

I grew up in a poor area - ex mining village in south Wales. Looking back one of the big issues was that too many people had low expectations for young people, even our teachers. We weren't expected to succeed at anything, to have ambition or to want anything better. Girls were funnelled on to childcare and beauty courses at the local college - assuming they weren't pregnant as soon as their GCSEs were over, boys to the local factory.

Maybe they themselves are ‘genuinely concerned’ but that’s irrelevant. There was an election. The Reform anti-immigration party didn’t get in because not enough people agree with them that its a problem. That’s democracy.

I am genuinely concerned about lots of things that government does (previous one) but don’t steal sausage rolls to express that.

suck it up as they say

All the main parties have promised to reduce immigration and have failed (looking at you, Conservatives). It's not just Reform that promise it.

Politicians don't listen without a good old fashioned riot. Unfortunately looting for crocs and Greggs sausage rolls somewhat undermines the protests.

100% this

@HighlandCowbag

That was a really well put together post that accurately raises issues that others wish to brush under the carpet rather than address.

Lol at that video being an example of extreme poverty - it's a perfectly normal terraced alleyway as seen in any northern city. A high proportion of inner city people live in these types of houses. Their kids have decent clothes and shoes though, usually. The benefits system allows for that unless parents are dysfunctional due to drugs drink or mental health issues (which plenty are - but it's not a direct effect of lack of money). Also there is free bin collection so people leaving bags of junk around is a sign of their dysfunction not a sign of poverty. Similar with old mattresses. Free collection of bulky items is available in most big cities you just need to phone up. ( I guarantee no one is so poor there that they don't have a smart phone). Dilapidated substandard housing is a result of inadequate controls on private landlords and general decline of Victorian housing stock.

The reporter has obviously lived quite a sheltered life!

I THINK she's also married to Richard Tice of recent Reform leader fame. I have no idea if what she's filming is right or not but she will have an agenda and that should be made clear by the Telegraph.

All the main parties have promised to reduce immigration and have failed (looking at you, Conservatives). It's not just Reform that promise it

Labour haven’t had the chance to do it yet they’ve been in 4 weeks. And if people cared THAT much they’d have voted Reform. Simple

Maybe people have exhausted all of the ordinary channels available to them?

@MrKiplingsFrenchFancies we’ve just had a general election. You can’t throw your toys out the pram because everyone doesn’t agree with you. It’s democracy

@HighlandCowbag to be clear

are you saying the “heart of gold” lady was cheering on the mob while they attacked a hotel with human beings inside?

Yes. It was perfectly clear. What don't you understand?

I know this woman very well. She is a nice, hardworking, kind woman. Loves animals, very close, loving family. Completely inoffensive in every way.

It puzzled me as well as to why she took part in the riot, I've deliberately avoided seeing her as I suspect she will want to discuss it, and I am not ready to yet. I don't want to fall out with her, we share a space. Not a work space but we are expected to not fall out in this space.

I think my first post on this thread addresses my thoughts as to why this happens.

To clarify a few points.

Bin collection is what fits in your bin. We have 3. A general waste bin which is collected fortnightly. A glass/tin which is collected every 4 weeks, same with the paper/cardboard bin. If we want garden waste to be collected it's an extra £80 a year.

There is no free collection for large items from out council. It is £28 I think for up to 3 items. You leave it out and is collected within a week.

Have you ever lived on benefits? I have, it's shit. And that was when it was tax credits, not universal credit which I think is even worse.

I don’t support rioters in any way, but many people (non rioters) have got concerns about the levels of immigration, and the boats.

Their concerns should be discussed and heard.🙂