To think "genuine concerns about immigration are irrelevant?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

I fully accept that people may have genuine concerns about immigration. Some of those concerns may be 100% valid. Some may be based on misinformation or poor understanding. Regardless, I can accept the fact that some people have concerns.

But if people do have concerns, there are ways of expressing and addressing these properly. Peaceful demonstrations. Lobbying MPs. Or even standing for election.

But as soon as people make the leap from expressing legitimate concern about government policies to intimidating and attacking innocent individuals who have no influence or control over those policies, that is when "concerns" are no longer relevant and common or garden racism takes over. If people weren't fundamentally racist, why on earth would it even occur to them to do this?

If I am unhappy about decisions affecting my community taken by my local council, my first thought isn't to go and beat up my neighbour in order to make a point. Most people would recognise that such anger was utterly misplaced. Why is it that people don't seem to recognise that the anger towards migrants/asylum seekers/ethnic minorities/muslims etc is equally misplaced. Why are so many people saying that they understand the reasons for the violence ever though they don't condone it.

I don't think it's at all understandable that someone with grievances about government policy would think that throwing bricks at a mosque or setting fire to a building full of people will help to resolve the issues that they are concerned about. The people that they are targeting are not in a position to change anything. There is no logic to this thinking, so why do people's minds go there? As far as I can see, the only possible explanation is racism, pure and simple. The "genuine concerns" are nothing but a cover for thuggery.

I Agree the target isn’t relevant to their issues.

They are weaponised by other people- who should be held responsible.

But we also need to make kids better at discerning motivation and so on.
Even on here, where women are generally well read and discerning, there’s a tribalism I find shocking. Really shocking.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are two completely separate questions.

One is why certain sections of our population feel angry and disempowered.

The second is why certain sections of our policy are horribly racist.

I want us to break the narrative that one is a logical and inevitable conclusion of the other. I don't think they are linked.

I agree!

If people are disenfranchised, feel like they are second class citizens, if there are problems with integration etc etc then that is something the incoming government has a moral duty to fix. They also need to fix it if they want to be re-elected. But that was true before the riots.

By linking the two situations together, there's not only a risk that it could be used to excuse the very unpleasant violence. There is also a risk that some will take the attitude of "well, they got to riot a bit, they have had their chance to blow of steam" and not do anything about the actual issues facing people. Also those with an agenda (Farage) will use it to surf to power.

Absolutely. Plus linking the two also does a massive injustice to the many poor and disenfranchised people who are not in the least bit racist.

Not another bloody thread on this …….

A helpful contribution. You are welcome to scroll on past if you are not interested.

But you're dealing with people who don't understand. I saw a woman on TV who said she was protesting because immigration is like what happened to the Titanic. They put too many people on the Titanic which made it sink. You can't argue with stupid.

I think the levels of poverty in some areas of the UK are absolutely shocking. I remember when I came to the UK in the early 2000s and people spoke about poverty in the UK I used to tell them that they should visit India to see "real" poverty. I don't say (or think) that anymore.

However, i disagree with you that the poverty is caused by mass immigration. I would argue that it is failed policies and the neglect and mismanagement by successive governments and austerity policies since 2010 that has caused poverty. The cost of living crisis that has plunged about 300k children into absolute poverty has got nothing to do with immigration.

Throughout history we have seen that when poverty levels or unemployment are high and the population is struggling racism, xenophobia and fascism increase. This seems to be fairly universal and sadly it is happening to varying extent all over the world. And what is also universal is populist politicians scape goating minorities to deflect from their short comings and the real problems that a country is facing.

Immigration has reduced by about 10% since 2021 and apparently net migration from the EU is now negative. Has this improved anyone's situation? Has anyone escaped or come out of poverty?

I am very familiar with the poverty experienced by these communities. However, I don't agree with your analysis that this is because their needs are considered secondary to those of the immigrants. Actually, many immigrant families are living in very similar conditions or even worse. I think you're mistaken if you believe that immigration is the root cause of these issues.

I totally understand the anger in these communities but I think it is misdirected, and well meaning people who think that they are speaking up on behalf of these poor, disenfranchised people are often missing the point. It often suits those in power very well to allow the anger to be misdirected towards immigrants, because that deflects attention away from those in power who are actually responsible, and from the fact that successive governments from all parties have persistently and catastrophically failed to address the structural problems that allow poverty and hopelessness to exist.

The racism is getting in the way of these people actually getting their voices heard and the real issues addressed. I am absolutely 100% certain that stopping all be immigration tomorrow would not fix the problems that these communities are facing.

X post @NotWhiteIsAColour - I completely agree.

I think it would help to separate them if we were able to discuss both elements.

Secularism doesn’t help, if France is anything to go by.

When people feel they are under survival stress they lash out at what’s close at hand that isn’t ‘them’. A handy punchbag.
All the things that make someone ‘other’ make them a more available target. I think integration, where we look more like each other, is really important. Marks of difference aren’t helpful, imo.

I wear only Western clothes and look exactly the same as any white woman, but honestly reading that we all need to look like each other makes me want to swagger around in a very loud, very bright sari with a massive "dot" on my forehead.
I could do all that integration and still be attacked for my skin colour, as people were in the days of the National Front.

It’s an excuse for racist hateful idiot thugs to act out their anger

they don’t care about the poor families of the three little girls killed last week it’s utterly shameful they pretend to

this is not the time for discussions about how immigration is managed this is a time for very though action that is arresting those that are taking part and those that are inciting violence following by prosecution

It seems to me that all rioters or people concerned about immigration are being tarred with the same brush (all far right racists) and immigrants are also being lumped into one box (all Islamists determined to take over this country and/or sponge off the state). Until the language changes about both sides and unless the government does something tangible about immigration things are only going to get much much worse. The fact the riots are all over the country means that a few hundred arrests won't make any difference. And re your original question OP, working out the long term explanations of the riots (not the spark that set them off) are the only thing that's going to stop them getting worse. We are in a real pickle now.

Ultimately the rioters who break the law (both sides) are criminals. And the government needs to control immigration properly. Both things can be true at once.

Even the most basic calculations put the economic burden on the British taxpayer of an illegal migration population of 1.2 million at £14.4 billion. That is just shy of 10% of NHS England's budget for this year.7 May 2024

Obviously the legal citizens of the UK of any religion, colour or ethnicity should not be targeted, and are in no way linked to this figure but as PinkPurpleHibiscus8 highlights as people are disparaged and mocked as ignorant and bigoted this is fertile ground for disenfranchised people to turn into hateful extremists.

Op, you say I am absolutely 100% certain that stopping all immigration tomorrow would not fix the problems that these communities are facing which is indisputably true, but stopping all illegal immigration tomorrow may at least make these rioters feel acknowledged?

I think that a huge number of people in this country aren't as clever as you. But it doesn't mean that they don't feel sad and frustrated that they or their children have no futures that they can see. And that the party that was supposed to be on the side of the working class and the Red Wall now no longer seems interested in them but more interested in another type of group. Their wages have been undercut by cheap labour and their lives are much worse than those living in hotels paid for by the state. They won't write to their MP or stand for election or anything else that PPs have suggested. They may have no idea how to even start. They will just react how they've always had to react in life when they see a threat.

That doesn't mean to say that the rioters aren't criminals though because they are and they need to be punished because they made the choice to act the way they did. No excuses.

I don't agree with the idea that everyone needs to look like each other. I don't actually care what other people wear tbh.

I really don't see different types of dress as a barrier to integration, but I suspect that for some people, the term "integration" means that "they need to be more like us". It puts all of the onus on the immigrants to adapt and assimilate.

My dd's primary school community was wonderfully diverse and I would say very integrated, but not in the sense of everyone being the same. The differences were celebrated and respected, and everyone made an effort to be inclusive and to interact with one another. It can work, where there is a willingness to make it work. I don't think it is inevitable that people hate people who are different from them.

As for properly discussing both elements, yes absolutely. But we need to broaden the discussion of poverty and disenfranchisement to cover a much wider range of issues than just immigration, which isn't the main cause of the problem. And where immigration is raised as a part of those conversations, it needs to be discussed without resorting to the racist tropes that so often seem to be invoked whenever the subject comes up. That's why the subject constantly gets shut down.

I do agree that any discussions about how immigration is managed now need to be delayed for an extended period so that there is no perception that the government is responding to the rioters' demands. It will inevitably have to be pushed down the agenda as time and resources will need to be directed towards dealing with law and order issues.

The problem to date has been that the conversation hasn't been allowed as people who don't resort to "racist tropes" are still shut down as being racist for even raising the issue. It's been a huge elephant in the room for years. It will be very interesting and scary to see what's going to happen now the genie/elephant?! is out of the bottle. Will Keir allow a proper discussion or will everyone be shut down as "far right" as he seems to be trying to do at the moment. I think if he carries on politicising it like this the problem is going to get a lot lot worse.

Surely the conversation has been allowed. Otherwise, what was Brexit?

Both can be true at once, but it isn't helpful to link the two. There is no cause and effect here.

As for everyone being tarred with the same brush, I don't agree. I genuinely don't think people with concerns about immigration will be accused of racism or far right views if they manage to express those concerns without resorting to racist tropes or stereotypes, and without suggesting that, while they don't condone the rioters, they understand why people are angry etc. That statement again seems to give some credence to the idea that individual POC/Muslims/Asylum seekers etc are somehow to blame for aspects of government policy that they don't like, and I think making that link is inherently racist imo.

The conversation unfortunate got too toxic around Brexit to be helpful. And any comversation obviously made no difference anyway to the numbers of immigrants. Or at least not in the direction I'm assuming people hoped for.

Are you saying that people are now able to have that conversation? That might actually take the heat out of things. I have to say I haven't noticed decent normal people being able to yet without being called racist but hopefully that will change ASAP. If it continues being shut down we are all in trouble. I don't think people are blaming individual asylum seekers by the way. Just the government for the high numbers.

Agreed. No excuse for violence. Yes I have concerns about immigration. Who doesn't? It is a Tricky issue.

I actually do worry about England. Not the white, racial part, just the us all living together. I mean how is this going to carry on/end? It's not going to get any better is it?

Plus: I read from another thread someone posted about hated between countries :Only then might we all stop hating other countries because of their different race/religion/culture".

But I'm not sure that's the problem. One problem is integration and us all living together.

See I like different countries. I don't want us to blend. I like French, Dutch, german, Italian differences. Going to different countries, different languages. Different cultures and foods. 'When in Rome'. Wouldn't it be a shame if the Italian language disappeared. Why is it ok to move to another country, saying people arriving in Portugal and not integrating, setting up your own area, taking over so that there's no Portugal left. How can that be right?

All this stuff atm is mostly thugs using it as an excuse. But underneath there are actually many complex issues that I'm just not sure we can solve. How is this ever going to get any better. What exactly are we actually going to do, on a practical level?

I think its less about diversity and more about how much the country's infrastructure can cope with immigration in general.

If there is a high level of a particular religion or ethnicity and the culture attached and that is causing massive issues to the way of life to everyone else, then of course that would need to be tackled.

However, the rational view isn't where immigration is coming from, it's how much the population is rising and realistically how much immigration we can cope with, on top of our population reaching further into old age than they did decades ago. Our infrastructure isn't progressing in line with the level of people here and something needs to give.

All of that however, isn't the fault of the people who are being granted asylum or anyone granted visas prior to getting here, it is the responsibility of the government to draw a limit.