Page 7 | Shamima Begum

Mamabear04 · 2024-08-07T13:30:15+00:00

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2n8xv61x3o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2n8xv61x3o]] I'll admit I actually don't know much about this apart from it being on the news when it happened and I did watch a documentary about it. Do you think she should be allowed to have British citizenship? I mean she was a child when it happened, surely she was groomed? And now stateless, doomed to live indefinitely in a camp with nowhere to go? I think running away to join Isis is of course absolutely awful but surely she should be treated as a child that was groomed? Or am I missing something?

prh47bridge · 07/08/2024 17:12

Feelinadequate23 · 07/08/2024 16:58

On a personal level I don't like her and don't care what happens to her. I don't buy the "she was 15" arguments. Most 15 year olds know murder and suicide bombing is wrong and don't go to actively participate/support it.

On a more fundamental level, however, I don't think she should have had her citizenship removed. She was born in the UK and it sets a dangerous precedent of ignoring the rule of law. It is also blatantly racist in that if my white, blonde, christian-background daughter (who was also born in the UK) did this there is absolutely no way she would have her citizenship revoked. Given a life sentence, maybe, but not have citizenship revoked. That's why I think it needs to be reinstated, regardless of what Begum is actually like/if she feels remorse, etc.

I want to be able to trust that our government and legal system actually follow the law (don't take it for granted that they do, by the way - they are currently ignoring declarations of the ICJ regarding Israel, so they very much pick and choose which laws they want to follow, which is pretty terrifying).

Do please explain how the rule of law has been ignored. The decision to remove her citizenship was entirely lawful.

Regarding your charge of racism, see the case of Anna Chapman who had her citizenship revoked for spying for Russia. The only reason your daughter wouldn't have her citizenship revoked is that it would leave her stateless. Whilst Begum is stateless now, the decision at the time did not leave her stateless. She became stateless on her 21st birthday when she allowed her Bangladeshi citizenship to lapse.

BingoBangow · 07/08/2024 17:16

User7171 · 07/08/2024 17:06

@Aussieland

How about they remove your citizenship when you make a stupid decision at 15 led by a friend telling you she has moved to an awesome place where everyone is happy? And then your children all die and you are left living in a camp?

Well when you put it like that, it could happen to anyone couldn't it?

One minute you're doing your GCSE's, listening to pop music and chatting with friends about fashion, boys and your hobbies. The next you've wandered off into the middle of a festival of rape, beheadings and suicide bombings, cheering on deranged terrorists in an enclave that's trying to return to the dark ages, thousands of miles away.

Only by luck that it wasn't us, isn't it?

🙄

Exactly 👏👏

Can’t believe the number of people calling it a ‘stupid decision’ made at 15 and suggesting it’s something any 15 year old could do…!

A stupid decision for a normal 15 year old would be pinching a bike, drinking alcohol in the park until you’re sick or telling lies that you were with friends at the cinema but actually went out clubbing….. Joining a terrorist organisation is not even slightly similar and I’m stunned at the number of people who think it is.

TickTockTickTok · 07/08/2024 17:19

The decapitated heads in the bins have also had their lives put on hold somewhat.

SundayBloodySunday · 07/08/2024 17:39

RedWinePoliticsAndHair · Today 14:41
Kids frequently play stupid games and she was a kid. She's had what, three or more babies die and is stateless in a camp? Even though she was born a British citizen? It's terrifying. If it can happen to her it can happen to you.

Totally agree with this. @Pottedpalm , really don't think it's ridiculous at all.

MooseBreath · 07/08/2024 17:43

I think she should be allowed to have British Citizenship, as she was born and raised in the UK. I also think she should be rehabilitated as an inpatient and then placed on terrorism watch lists for the rest of her life, with no access to a passport.

macaroniandcheeze · 07/08/2024 17:44

Campcritters · 07/08/2024 15:03

She’s definitely a scapegoat but not enough people really care that much because she isn’t particularly likeable.

Exactly. She is not the acceptable (white) face of a victim

TheYearOfSmallThings · 07/08/2024 18:09

I think it was the right decision. She has never given any indication that she feels any remorse or takes any responsibility for anything she has done. I actually think she has been quite honest about her belief that she is entitled to return to the UK for her own benefit without changing any of her views.

MelIy · 07/08/2024 18:10

Exactly. She is not the acceptable (white) face of a victim

It's mostly the bleeding heart white middle class defending her... and you can't call her a victim (nonsense) and then accuse anyone who disagrees with that as being racist.

NotWhiteIsAColour · 07/08/2024 18:16

Of course. She is British. It's racist to remove her citizenship just because her parents are of Bangladeshi origin especially when Bangladesh have clearly said they won't give her citizenship. It sets a very nasty precedent that shows that clearly not all British citizens are equally British in the eyes of the law.

ghostyslovesheets · 07/08/2024 18:16

queenofdarkness666 · 07/08/2024 14:51

You mean the thousands of young working class blonde girls who were groomed in poor Northern towns and whose grooming the police and local authorities ignored for decades? If only their stories got as much airtime as her story.

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They where not all blonde -what an odd statement. But if you care about teenagers being groomed and manipulated then yes just like them, so I guess you feel she should come home?

Incidentally that case was pushed into light by a health worker and the girls themselves and the main reason the police and social services didn't act wasn't 'race' but a misogynistic view of young women including thinking they knew what they where doing and profiting from it. Very similar to the views about this 15 year old - and that's wrong - yes?

MelIy · 07/08/2024 18:18

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49385376

Bollihobs · 07/08/2024 18:18

bilbodog · 07/08/2024 14:36

I agree with you both - she should be brought back along with any other british women and children. Unfortunately this thread will be set upon soon by others who disagree.

"Set upon by others who disagree" 😂

How DARE people who disagree with you participate in an open forum discussion! 🙄

Purplebunnie · 07/08/2024 18:20

RoseGoldEagle · 07/08/2024 14:51

She was a child, a deeply unhappy child who didn’t feel she had a future in the UK and was groomed into believing her life would be better if she joined ISIS. She had a horrific time out there and lost 3 babies. She was still only 19 when she was discovered and was clearly traumatised. Some of the privileged white men who interviewed her and goaded her at the time should be ashamed of themselves.

I thought she was a straight "A" student. I thought all three were which is why it was so odd that they gave it all up

Nevertheless she is our problem and probably she should be brought back - not just yet though, she'd be sought out by the thugs out there

prh47bridge · 07/08/2024 18:23

NotWhiteIsAColour · 07/08/2024 18:16

Of course. She is British. It's racist to remove her citizenship just because her parents are of Bangladeshi origin especially when Bangladesh have clearly said they won't give her citizenship. It sets a very nasty precedent that shows that clearly not all British citizens are equally British in the eyes of the law.

Her citizenship was not removed "just because" her parents are of Bangladeshi origin. At the time her citizenship was removed she also held Bangladeshi citizenship. That lapsed when she was 21 because she chose not to take it up.

Similarly, Anna Chapman (who is white) was a British citizen through marriage. She also held Russian citizenship. Her British citizenship was removed following her conviction for spying for Russia.

The law is that British citizenship cannot be removed if it leaves the individual stateless. However, if you hold dual citizenship your British citizenship can be removed if that is conducive to the public good.

punkyKat · 07/08/2024 18:24

How many of us did stupid things at 15 and regret it? You don't have the emotional maturity at this age and she was groomed.

Barbadossunset · 07/08/2024 18:31

It's highly likely that she will face trial if she is let back into the country.

What will she face trial for?

NotWhiteIsAColour · 07/08/2024 18:31

prh47bridge · 07/08/2024 18:23

Her citizenship was not removed "just because" her parents are of Bangladeshi origin. At the time her citizenship was removed she also held Bangladeshi citizenship. That lapsed when she was 21 because she chose not to take it up.

Similarly, Anna Chapman (who is white) was a British citizen through marriage. She also held Russian citizenship. Her British citizenship was removed following her conviction for spying for Russia.

The law is that British citizenship cannot be removed if it leaves the individual stateless. However, if you hold dual citizenship your British citizenship can be removed if that is conducive to the public good.

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I can't find any source that says she has dual citizenship. I found this on the BBC news website:

'What happened in the Shamima Begum case?
In February 2020, a tribunal ruled that removing Ms Begum's citizenship was lawful because she was "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent". It said removing her British nationality would not make her stateless.
However, Bangladesh said that was not the case and that she would not be allowed into the country.'

British schoolgirl Shamima Begum during her interview with the BBC on Monday

Shamima Begum will not be allowed here, Bangladesh says

Bangladesh says there is "no question" of Shamima Begum being allowed into the country.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47312207

OhmygodDont · 07/08/2024 18:32

punkyKat · 07/08/2024 18:24

How many of us did stupid things at 15 and regret it? You don't have the emotional maturity at this age and she was groomed.

Stupid is stupid like thombstoning off a bridge stealing from Asda. Joining a terrorist organisation is far far far above stupid.

I was pregnant with a fiancé and a house at 17 to some stupid. Still not a terrorist though.

MixedCouple2 · 07/08/2024 18:35

She was groomed and a child and trafficked. The double standards in this country never cease to amaze me.

TunnocksOrDeath · 07/08/2024 18:35

My objection to her losing her UK citizenship is that the UK government's justification is that she is a dual citizen, because she is legally eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship.

Regardless of what she's done, or whether she is sinner or sinned-against, this is grossly unfair on the people of Bangladesh.

She was born and raised in the UK. She was radicalised while living here in the UK and attending a British school. It was a failure of UK agencies that allowed her to be radicalised and then flown out to ISIS. She is a UK problem.

How on earth is it OK for the UK government to dump our problem on a country where she has never lived, who have never issued her a passport, and who have made it very clear that they want nothing to do with her? She should be brought back to the UK and tried here.

prh47bridge · 07/08/2024 18:38

TunnocksOrDeath · 07/08/2024 18:35

My objection to her losing her UK citizenship is that the UK government's justification is that she is a dual citizen, because she is legally eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship.

Regardless of what she's done, or whether she is sinner or sinned-against, this is grossly unfair on the people of Bangladesh.

She was born and raised in the UK. She was radicalised while living here in the UK and attending a British school. It was a failure of UK agencies that allowed her to be radicalised and then flown out to ISIS. She is a UK problem.

How on earth is it OK for the UK government to dump our problem on a country where she has never lived, who have never issued her a passport, and who have made it very clear that they want nothing to do with her? She should be brought back to the UK and tried here.

No, the justification is not that she was eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship. The justification is that, at the time her British citizenship was removed, she also held Bangladeshi citizenship. That lapsed when she reached 21, so she is now stateless. Had she only been eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship, it would not have been possible for the government to remove her British citizenship legally and the courts would have intervened.

NotWhiteIsAColour · 07/08/2024 18:39

TunnocksOrDeath · 07/08/2024 18:35

My objection to her losing her UK citizenship is that the UK government's justification is that she is a dual citizen, because she is legally eligible for Bangladeshi citizenship.

Regardless of what she's done, or whether she is sinner or sinned-against, this is grossly unfair on the people of Bangladesh.

She was born and raised in the UK. She was radicalised while living here in the UK and attending a British school. It was a failure of UK agencies that allowed her to be radicalised and then flown out to ISIS. She is a UK problem.

How on earth is it OK for the UK government to dump our problem on a country where she has never lived, who have never issued her a passport, and who have made it very clear that they want nothing to do with her? She should be brought back to the UK and tried here.

Yes I agree with that and if I understand correctly while she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship, Bangladesh has clearly said they will not grant her citizenship. She is stateless now.

bilbodog · 07/08/2024 18:43

To those saying she has never seemed remorseful - SHE IS IN SYRIA - presumably surrounded by ISIS sympathisers - if she walked away from any interviews having slated ISIS and crying remorse she would have been killed.

also once out there, suddenly realising what a huge mistake she has made - she would have been killed if she tried to escape.

KTheGrey · 07/08/2024 18:44

Ivehearditbothways · 07/08/2024 14:49

Let’s not pretend that this decision hasn’t been influenced by the media and public sentiment. Her citizenship should never have been removed; we made her stateless. She is our problem, and had it been kept quieter and had less exposure, I really think they would have allowed her back to be tried and convicted if deemed necessary.

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She is indeed our problem and our courts have dealt with her. Would her next step be an appeal to the ICHR? I don’t know how that would work.

gizatwirl · 07/08/2024 18:46

Mamabear04 · 07/08/2024 15:06

This is what I am wondering too..

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Sajid Javid who was Home Secretary at the time basically said that if the public were privy to the evidence they had seen they would fully understand why she was stripped of her citizenship. Based on the evidence he said she was a threat to national security and that is why the decision was taken to revoke her citizenship.