To Ask “What’s wrong with shame?”

[MoveToParis]

As a society we have mostly abandoned shame and now seem to view shame as universally bad.

I don’t think that’s true, I think it has its place and if someone behaves shamefully then why shouldn’t they feel shame?

If you are prepared to own your behaviour then other people’s opinion won’t bother you. But if your behaviour (and I include my own in this) has to be kept like a grubby little secret, then maybe a bit of shame won’t do any harm in the long run.

Shame isn’t viewed as universally bad, just the kind of shame which has no rational basis behind it e.g being ashamed of your body or the fact that your house is too small.

Shame involves a sense of being a bad person, whereas guilt is feeling bad about behaviour. Personally, I think shame is more likely to send behaviour underground and hidden and less likely to lead to change. Guilt, on the other hand, allows us to feel like we are good enough as a person, but feel bad about behaviour that causes harm or upset, and, I think, then gives us more impetus for change and make it less likely that we hide the behaviour.

I'm fine with shaming someone for criminal or immoral behaviour.

Not so much for being overweight, poor, shy etc.

But one person’s view of shameful isn’t the same as another’s.

Who decides the definition/level of shame or not?

I am not sure that "as a society we have mostly abandoned shame".

People making this argument seem to sometimes be referring to specific forms of shame which were unanimously enforced in the past: for being queer, for enjoying sex as a woman, for getting pregnant outside of marriage?

Can you be more specific about the types of shame you are in favour of?

I'm not good on shaming people for being fat, gay, disabled, or a woman.

I'm particularly not ok with shaming children because their dad fucked off and left their mum.

A lot of the things people are shamed for are not about their behaviour but about societies rules.

I'm also not in favour of shaming women for
Not wearing hijab or burka. See Iran or most Muslim countries.

TBH I’m more bothered by the growth of competitive sentimentality and saccharine public displays of emotion. The ludicrous reaction to Diana’s death kicked it all off and it’s been downhill ever since.

Anyone else got Hannah Waddingham in Game of Thrones shouting Shame,Shame! In their heads now?

I do not think anyone should feel shame at being gay; being over weight or being a single parent.
but two examples where I think people should feel shame are
(a) being a coke user. To be paying for rape and murder as an integral part of your weekend is despicable.
(b) and this is from another thread- going up to someone in the gym and telling them their cellulite is showing, seems to show a serious problem with your personality having gone wrong.

Shame is responsible for a lot of damage and harm (even death) done to people(particularly women) in the past, and sometimes even now. It was used to control ,bully and ostracise. It was used to keep people in their place.

Ironically, the people who should feel ashamed, normally don't. They either have some excuse or they're holier than thou .

Not too many decades ago it was shameful for young single women to become pregnant. It was either forced marriage and a lifetime of misery, or getting "sent away" and coming back months later, not pregnant and no baby, as it has been snatched away forcefully for a childless couple to bring up. These young women were just expected to carry on is af nothing happened. That's kne thing that is no longer shameful, mostly.
Thank god

So you agree there is a rightful place for shame in society?

It’s interesting that you say the people who should feel shame don’t- but in the cases you mention it does seem to me that that group will own their viewpoint (even though you and I profoundly disagree with them)

I think everyone will agree that certain people should feel ashamed and be shamed.

The issue is you can't just have one type and it's often a double edged sword with plenty of collateral victims. Then what? Is it really worth it? Are there other, better avenues?

Think of the "name and shame " trend with businesses for example . It can be anything from legit whistle blowing/complaint to revenge to unreasonable demands from the customer to pure lies.

However, no need to worry , it will never go away as it's used (rightly or wrongly)by all sections of society in numerous contexts.

I think there is a place for feeling shame. Its like a conscience- helps you moderate your behaviour to a socially acceptable level.
I think we've abandoned it as being a totally bad thing and look at the state of our society. People can behave however badly they like with no consequences and look how well that is turning out!

You see it here on MN when, for example, a teenager has behaved badly. 'Don't shame him/her'. Why not? If someone has behaved badly, they should feel ashamed. (In proportion to the seriousness of the bad behaviour).

Two of the issues are that "bad behaviour " means completely different things to different people and also that a lot of the time it can be counterintuitive and create a cycle of negativity that breeds more bad behaviour/wrong choices.

Especially when it comes to kids/teens.

I agree with this post , broadly speaking. Shame got a bad rep because the Church(es) made people feel ashamed for things which were not intrinsically wrong and / or not their fault. So shame went out of fashion so to speak. There must always be some parental or societal reason for our failings. Except sometimes there just isn't. I suppose , recently, certain groups on social media have tried to replace the church with mixed success....

I wonder if Huw Edwards feels any shame

I think shame is lacking in some areas where it should 100% be restored. It would make society better.

The death of shame is all about individual liberty over collective benefit. It's why our society is going down the toilet.

Is that shame, or guilt though?

I think guilt is what shapes behaviour in a positive way.

That sense of feeling bad for something we did that caused harm or upset. I think it’s that, that shapes our behaviour socially.

Shame is more about feeling bad for the person we are, but even the people that behave awfully and atrociously will have some parts of them that are acceptable and even positive. That doesn’t mean they should get away with atrocities, be welcomed into society etc. of course. And some behaviours mean that the person should be permanently excluded from society for the safety of all.

I am a pretty good person, I think. I certainly try hard to be. But I have felt both shame and guilt at times. As a woman who grew up in the 70s and 80s I felt shame about all kinds of parts of myself just for being a woman. I have felt shame about some of my choices. That didn’t lead me to do anything different or be different. It just made me feel shit about myself and feel angry with the world. Had I been a more violent or aggressive person this may have led to different and worse behaviours.

As time has gone in and I’ve accepted myself and who I am, flaws and all, I now feel healthy guilt if I mess up. So for example I said something to my DC that hurt his feelings yesterday. I felt guilt and so immediately apologised and repaired things. Shame would have led to me defending my position further I reckon. Or ignoring it and hoping it went away.

Shame tends to be unbearable to us as a feeling so we tend to have a ‘shield for shame’ - when our shame is triggered the tendency is to deny, minimise, hide things, blame others and/or rage. I think it’s actually unhelpful as a tool for behaviour change.

I think consequences and behaviour management are much better focused on behaviours than personality. Behaviours we can change, personality and traits, less so.

Can you explain what that would look like? I can’t imagine what measures you’d take.

Shame isn’t about behaviour. It’s about the person and who they are intrinsically. Some behaviours should be judged as wrong. Both in a parenting and legal context.

People want to shame behaviours(and other things sometimes like wealth, appearance, accent etc) they don't like . How is that not , at least in part, about behaviour?